Efflorescence Vs Spalling Vs Your Foundation

John Laforme and YC of SoCal Seismic discuss foundation issues such as efflorescence and spalling. Efflorescence is white mineral deposits from moisture intrusion, while spalling is concrete crumbling. They emphasize the importance of proper foundation inspections and testing, such as the pen test, to assess the sturdiness of foundations. A foundation replacement can cost around $85,000. They also highlight the impact of expansive soil, which expands and shrinks with moisture, causing cracks. Proper ventilation and drainage are crucial to prevent moisture issues. They also discuss the use of structural-grade plywood for cripple wall bracing and the importance of understanding building fundamentals for home inspectors.

Transcript

John Laforme: 0:00

Buying a home. Don't panic, just listen to the rest of this podcast. Okay, what about spalling and efflorescence? So I want to, I want to talk about that, because that tends to freak people out too. And once again, it's all part of the perfect storm of having foundation problems. Yeah, so I'll start out, and then you jump in sure when you think maybe I'm not describing something properly, or whatever. So efflorescence is evidence of moisture coming in through the foundation from the exterior. It's not effervescence, it's efflorescence pencil. You ask. I remember being on a job once, and I said, Oh yeah, you have a lot of efflorescence under the house. And the realtor looked at me and goes, Wow, you actually said that correct? I had

YC: 0:51

some people say it's called fluorescence, yeah. I was like, All right, all right. We're

John Laforme: 0:55

on the same page, as long as you know we're talking about you begins with a knee, and it's got sense at the end. So, so anyway, so that's what efflorescence is, yep, efflorescence. I'll show you a picture that first. So right here, you can see the orange arrows are pointing to the the white stains on the on the block wall there, that's efflorescence coming in, right there. Yep. And that's, that's pretty common on any, any raised foundation to a certain level. I mean, I see, I've seen it excessive, where it's literally, like a half inch thick, yeah? And you can, kind of, like, powder it out. You could powder it out on your hand. But John, do you know what, what it is, it's moisture intrusion from outside. But what is the white part? Oh, that's the minerals. Yep,

YC: 1:39

I could just call it salt, yeah, you know, just the salt left behind in the water that people don't know what it is. They think it's toxic. They think it's mold. No, no, that's not mold. Yeah, people think it's mold all the time. That is not mold. That is not mold, yep, that's a whole different podcast. I'm just clarifying. Yeah, yeah, no,

John Laforme: 1:57

no, I appreciate that. So right here, this is the next step after efflorescence, which is spalling of the concrete, which means you can see the aggregate in the concrete, because the the exterior part of the foundation is starting to just crumble away and just, you know, disintegrate, yep, and it's starting to fall apart. So if you look at this photo on the bottom right side, you'll see the big pile of concrete laying next to the concrete wall. And here's a close up of that. And you can see, I, actually, I'm holding in my hand there,

YC: 2:30

the foundation, the foundation, yeah, yeah. So when it comes down to a, you know, a situation like this, John, and ultimately, you have to remember, if it's this bad, and you're starting to see all the rocks we can't just, you know, surface skim coat it to reinforce it. At this point you're gonna need a foundation replacement. It's that bad. I mean, look, it's crumbling in your hands.

John Laforme: 2:47

Do you guys do a thing called a drill test to see how sturdy it still is? Yep, so

YC: 2:52

we don't do drill testing on regular stem wall foundations for Spalding. We do a pen test or a screwdriver test, because a drill can drill through anything I see. So it wouldn't really make sense for us to start drilling in it. But when it comes down to situation like this, we do, we do a pen test, a screwdriver with a special head on it that's, you know, kind of load, like a V and they test it around with that, oh, to see how far it goes in. Yeah. And they also test the top but ultimately, you know, just by looking at this photograph, it doesn't look really able to save this. I mean, it looks pretty bad. It's just crumbling in your hand. So just imagine those bolts. Are they gonna be able to hold? Right? Exactly? That's kind of the 1000 that was my point. And the rule of thumb is, and I like to mention this to homeowners as well, is if the bolts can hold, usually you don't have to replace your foundation. If the bolts can hold. Put it that way when you're crawling and inspection, you know, foundation on a crawl space. Think about it. You think a bolt can hold in this foundation? It's as simple as that. Yeah, well, you know, testing is a different story, but Right?

John Laforme: 3:50

So you guys may take on the job, and you know which I think we can get bolts in there, and you may start the job and realize they're not holding

YC: 3:56

No, we'll never do that. So if we, if we get to a situation like this, we're gonna recommend a foundation replacement. If it's an unknown where we really can't determine, we'll do a drill test. So before they close escrow, that way, they're now left in a pickle right coming. We're talking about $100,000 difference. You know, average foundation replacement is about$85,000

John Laforme: 4:16

what, I guess, what I'm put the point we're missing here is you're gonna do your own inspection. Correct of it first. Oh, and that's what? That's the part that got left out. So that's my concern. So you're gonna go on, they're gonna call you, you're gonna do your own inspection as a foundation special percent, yep, and then you're gonna determine what can and can't be done, correct?

YC: 4:33

Yeah, we have to go on site for that. So we'll get a lot of pictures like this. And I, and I mentioned to all the home inspectors, if there are any home inspectors watching this, you're, you know, welcome to put up our number, John, they can always text always text us pictures if they have questions. You know, we have a full Office staff to help out. So

John Laforme: 4:46

yeah, I will. I will have all your information in the description, on the podcast and on the YouTube version. So anybody wants to reach out to you, Well, that'll hire you do some do some repair, because you repairs. Yep, you don't, you don't do new construction. We don't do any. New Construction. You just do repairs correct and retrofit correct

YC: 5:02

everything underneath the house that's not new construction build. Okay, yep,

John Laforme: 5:06

all right, do you have to keep all you guys on a certain diet plan? So,

YC: 5:09

yeah, it's funny, you know, people come into the office to work, and I can just tell off the bat, they're not going to fit in the crawl space. I'm not going to not hire them. But I just explained to them, you know, you have to, you have to get in the crawl space and, oh, I didn't realize it was like that. And I had a good decision themselves. I

John Laforme: 5:25

had a similar situation. I had a gentleman call me years ago looking for a job as a home inspector, and he had this really deep voice. I said, Sir, let me ask you a question. What's that? How tall you about six, four. What do you think you weigh? Right? I mean, how big are you? He goes, I'm a pretty big guy, and say, well, you're probably not going to fit in most crawl spaces. He said, If you want to do this, I wouldn't be able to hire you, because I do a lot of crawl spaces, right? But there are areas you can go work, all slabs. You just got to be honest with your customers and tell them you don't do the crawl space unless he does a robot, but he has to go get it when it gets stuck. So it's not always the answer. Yeah, that's another video. But anyway, this is a great photo of just proven that I do work for a living. That's my hand. There you go. That's my hand holding that concrete. That's not latex gloves. Is it? No. And on the same note, here's another crawl space with just completely saturated soil. Yep, the entire crawl space was wet. And because of this, that's why I want to touch on this right now, is the the effects of moisture intrusion under your house. You don't want moisture under your house, and here are some reasons for that. So this, here is a old school anchor plate. It looks like, Yep, very old school. And look, look at the original bolt, all corroded and rusted. Take a look

YC: 6:52

at the washer. Yeah, circular washer, yep. So ultimately, when it comes down to this, I mean, this is full bar right here. If we imagine if we installed a new retrofitting plate, it would do the same thing, yeah. And the clients are paying for nothing, right? And again, I don't think most companies would care, right? Go in and install it and leave. So this,

John Laforme: 7:09

this house, particular house, has a moisture intrusion problem.

YC: 7:15

There's another one right there, yep. And that plywood snap to code, yeah.

John Laforme: 7:18

So this, this crawl space, was used as a storage unit. Keep in mind, this crawl space is dirt. Was it a tall access? Could you stand in there? No, it was pretty nice. It was pretty tight. So everywhere I went, I was banging my head on pipes, you name it was pretty tight. And everywhere I went, there was moisture. I didn't see it. I didn't see a major defect in the foundation. But, man, this thing's been taking on water for a long time, and they're storing their stuff under there, paper goods, boxes under there. I'm like, Come on, guys, wake up. So that's the adverse effect. So once again, it's all about moisture. Your crawl space needs to have proper ventilation, cross ventilation, so things can dry. So a little moisture gets in. No big deal. It can dry. Yep, yep. So there's a lot of little things to consider with what we're talking about here. And one thing we mentioned earlier was expansive soil. There it is. So let's go over. Let's, let's hear what you have to say about expansive soil.

YC: 8:13

Sure. So, you know, this is another thing people freak out about, you know, they see this underneath the house, and they're thinking that, you know, this was a little river of water crossing through. But they don't realize is, you know, the whole California is on expansive soil. You know, when it gets wet, it expands, and when it dries, it shrinks. And that's why you have, and those are shrinkage cracks. There you go. Exactly. These are not expanding cracks. You'll it'll be a little bit different, yeah. So ultimately, it's very, very common to see this. The only things you have to remember is, you know, the whole California is like that. You know, you're not just gonna go find another house. A lot of the A lot of times the buyers will say, let's look at another house instead. Okay, well, you're gonna have the same situation, or maybe worse. So you know, definitely don't disregard it, but don't freak out at the same time,

John Laforme: 8:52

right? See, I don't see this that much expand when I when I say, when I write up expensive soil. It might be couple times a month. Honestly, I don't see it a lot, but sometimes I see it and it's very excessive, yep, and that. And I'll find out later that that particular area, that neighborhood, happens to have excessive, right, right, expensive soil. Now I'll go, I'll go down a little go, a little backstory for you. I did a I was working with this realtor for quite some time, and he asked me to he was buying a house for himself and his wife, and he asked me to come look at it. So, okay, so I go underneath. And now it was, it was recently remodeled. Completely, completely remodeled. I go underneath. There was cracks that were repaired everywhere. Okay, each wall had at least five cracks that was strapped Well, a lot of cracks, all of them, yep, the entire foundation. Then I'm looking at the soil, it's all expansive. So I explained this to him. I said, you know, I've explained the story to you before. We've worked together before, right? I said, you've got like, 15 cracks here. Right? And I said, they've all been repaired, but you still have expansive soil, right? And I believe he didn't have enough drainage outside either. So I comment on all those things didn't help out, and he still bought it. I said, you're going to have cracks, right? You're going to still experience cracks inside your house, but as long as he understands that, that's the difference, yeah, but I was really careful about explaining, because I knew the guy, right? And he and we've been down this, yeah, this road before, so I was really surprised that, that he went through with it, because, because there was so many foundation repairs already, right? That to me, that to me, was a little scary, you know? I mean, it's

YC: 10:36

almost like a good sign though. I mean, they addressed it when they needed to, in the sense I wouldn't really be too worried about it, but as long as he's aware of it, and, you know, the preventative maintenance from the exterior drainage is corrected, yeah. And that would be the difference between having a really good agent and someone who barely sells any homes. I mean, I work with a lot of one percenters, you know, and you can tell the demeanor right off the bat, right off the bat, if they're trying to, oh, my clients coming, you know, be very cautious to what you say versus the ones that are top producers. They'll tell us say everything right off the bat, everything, yes. So you can really fish out the good agents from the bad ones. Something as simple as tell

John Laforme: 11:12

us how to do our job. That's annoying. I get that's not my first roadie, right? Yeah, and I'm not gonna, and you have to be honest, I don't have a second high pitched voice. So anyway, that's, that's what expensive soil looks like if you so if you happen to go under your house, you might even see this in your yard sometimes. So I've seen this in yards too. It's more of like a hump, though, yeah, versus the engraving, yeah. So it depends on where you're at, stuff like that. And then way back in the distance there you can see the efflorescence coming in, yep. So the trick to having excessive, expensive soil is you've got to keep it dry, because this will make your house move. Correct. Move a lot. You're not going to feel it, but it's going to you'll see the cracks. You'll see the cracks, but you're not going to literally feel your house moving. No, because it's a slow process. Go up, it'll come back down. You might hear a creek. You

YC: 11:58

might see it more in the summer months, as it dries and shrinks up, yeah, those cracks might close, but you'll still have a problem, you know? You know, some of those opening doors and windows will have that little nudge Right,

John Laforme: 12:08

right? So when I see this, I'd like, you know, you need to talk to a soils engineer, yeah, specialist, geotechnical engineer, to determine if it actually is. It looks like it to me, right? So anyway, that's how, that's how we deal with that one. We talked about the cripple wall bracing. I forgot to ask you, How thick is that ply would have to

YC: 12:26

be. So it depends on the home, but it's supposed to be five ply structural grade one. So, you know, five ply structural is a very, very different plywood than you might see on these older, older homes that are built. So it's not just a half inch plywood. Well, it's, it's, it's half inch, but it's five ply, five

John Laforme: 12:45

ply, it's structural sheathing, right? It's structural sheathing, but

YC: 12:48

it could also be, you know, it depends. So, for instance, you'll go to an older house built pre 1979 you'll find sheathing on it, but it's four ply or three ply,

John Laforme: 12:57

right? Now, OSB is also structural sheathing too. We don't use OSB, okay, yeah, can you use it?

YC: 13:03

You? Okay, it's, it depends on the city. Okay, put it that way. The problem with with problem with it is it's not really water resistant, right? So you're in a crawl space, yeah? That's true. Why would you want to Sure? So certain cities will allow it. We'll never install it, right? Well, never, but that's why I kind of laugh when you said that, because certain cities will just say, yeah, yeah, go ahead and install it, but

John Laforme: 13:25

I'm surprised they don't make you use like a pressure treated plywood. Imagine,

YC: 13:29

no, that requires the whole thing to wear gloves the entire time.

John Laforme: 13:34

Yeah, in a mask. You're gonna have a mask anyway, but okay, I don't think you answered the question earlier about why are there round holes in the sheeting? Is that just for ventilation? Is that to identify the bolts? Good

YC: 13:45

question. Yeah. So it's two reasons. One, it's a requirement for ventilation, and two, it's an inspector hole so they can see they actually put the right bolts in the right washers, got it. And there are certain requirements in spacing for that as well. You can't just, you don't just throw them around right and it's not always just to rub right above the bolt. So you're actually going off a blueprint. So we have engineered plans that we use, yeah, okay, yeah. And who makes up the engineer plan? So we have an engineer in house that you work with, okay? But also the there's a standard LA city plan set that we use, okay, but depends on the city. A lot of cities do not accept it.

John Laforme: 14:17

And as far as the plywood fasteners, just nails or screws? Yeah,

YC: 14:21

pretty much just nails. Yeah, there's a there's a certain requirement for the spacing of them, but yeah, sure, some people call them Tico nails. But

John Laforme: 14:28

okay, so do part. We talked about this in your meeting, but we're going to talk about today too. Do partition walls with cripple walls require sheeting?

YC: 14:35

Nope, they don't. And the reasons for that is the perimeter weight of the home is what requires the sheathing. So if it's an interior partition wall, it's not holding that lateral perimeter weight. So it's no code requirements at all, to brace them, right, to brace or bolt them right.

John Laforme: 14:50

Now, a partition wall is used for what it's

YC: 14:54

it's almost like a mimic of the post Imperial assembly. It's still holding the floor of the home right, but it's not. Holding the weight the primer of the home, right?

John Laforme: 15:01

It's not holding the perimeter of the home, but it is. It is supporting the floor structural load above it, correct? And

YC: 15:07

if there was a load bearing wall inside that they moved, or if an engineer came out there and decided to move a load bearing wall and that's where it lines up, and, yeah, it's obviously a different story, but majority of the cases, it's not like that. It's just holding up the floor of

John Laforme: 15:20

the home, yeah, yeah. Okay, yeah. Well, like, if you add, did a major addition on your house, they're going to have you transfer that load from the roof all the way through the field plates, all the way down to correct and they'll probably make you pour a home of footing.

YC: 15:32

The terminology uses weight shift transfer, so the weight of the home has to transfer that load and, you know, right, go to the bottom of that footing. So, right? I can't call that shot just by looking at it, you know. We'll have to, you know, go on site for an inspection. That's

John Laforme: 15:43

framing. That's like framing 101, so if, if you're a home inspection, you never really built a house before, or never really had any training in a in a stick framed house just to see how things are put together. Yep, different story. Yeah, it would really help you to get that training, because it's going to make you really understand more about what you're reporting to people when, when you look in an actual living lived in house with drywall on it, and you can't see the studs, you'll know what's behind him, at least, right, right?

YC: 16:10

Yeah, there's a great book from Larry Han you should all read, okay, but, you know, basic framing him and his brother have, they actually have some YouTube videos. They're not alive anymore. But it was a great, great series of original framing. You know, pretty much no power to us. Oh

John Laforme: 16:23

yeah, you know, I was lucky when I was younger. I was about 17, and I got involved with the framing crew over the summer, nice and turned into a full time job for me. And I really excelled at it. And I did, I did that till I was about 2323 323. So I had and we built everything you could think, custom homes, crazy roof lines you were young, yeah. And we did, and I was laying out blueprints by the time I was 19. Oh, wow, nice. So I had a really good boss, so it was really helpful for me to know that coming into this industry that I'm gonna know, so it's just a good thing for any home inspectors get all if you haven't built a deck, go build one, and that knowledge is priceless. Yeah, you'll learn just from that. Yeah, yeah.