Code Check Series With Skip Walker Part 1

I am joined by home inspector Skip Walker who is also one of the co-authors of the Code Check series. Skip and I discuss report writing best practices as well as how to utilize the code check series of books.

Code Check Series books are the most widely used code reference series in the U.S.  Each Code Check book is a condensed guide to the most commonly used code sections.  They include many of the most common code violations encountered by building inspectors, contractors, do-it-yourselfers and homeowners. New editions of codes typically are issued every three years. Each edition of Code Check is based on specific sets of codes, and most books include summaries of code changes to link them to the prior edition of codes as well.

With over 1.3 million copies sold since 1995, Code Check is the leader in navigating and understanding the voluminous, complex and sometimes tedious world of the codes.

As we say, "Code Check - Your key to the codes."

Order Your Books Today with link below.

https://codecheck.com/

Transcript

John Laforme: 0:00

Buying a home, don't panic. Just listen to the rest of this podcast. My guest today, skip Walker is also one of the co authors of the code check series. All right, we get skip Walker here today. You know, Skip, I don't know if a lot of my listeners are gonna know who you are. So once you introduce yourself and all your years of wisdom,

Skip Walker: 0:26

I don't know about the wisdom part. So, I've been a property inspector since 2003. So 20 years, give or take a little nice. And I've always been kind of interested in building codes. And ironically, about 2000. I started and I'm not a contractor, about 2000. I started doing and happy to hear that modeling. I'm sorry. You

John Laforme: 0:55

said you're not a contractor. So I'm happy to hear that.

Skip Walker: 1:00

I, I started doing remodeling on my mom's house, I was just going to do a couple bathrooms in the kitchen, and a service upgrade. And so I went down to my local jurisdiction and said, you know, this is my mom's house. I want to do it right. What should I do? And they, they literally told me, the guy at the counter said, Go get code checkbooks and make it look like the pictures, you'll be fine. So I'm serious. You can't make this. So, so I did. And I think I had one time where they wrote a correction notice on the the clearance on a toilet. That was it. And did both bathrooms, tiles surrounds all that, you know, 200 amp service upgrade from an old Federal Pacific did that yourself? Yep. Wow. And, and, yeah, it was all good. So anyway, fast forward. One night, I'm at. I'm a CREIA and Asha inspector, and have been doing teaching and, and whatnot. For since the mid 2000s. I started out in my, my local chapter doing, we would have pre meeting education, and then education talk. And no one wanted to do building goods during chapter time. So I said, Well, you know, to the board, will you let me do like a pre pre meeting education hour. So. So I did, I started with the IRC, because at that time, there was no California residential code, it was based on the UPC, and started on chapter one, and took me about four years at, you know, one hour per month to work my way through. And part of the reason I wanted to do it, because the best way to learn something is to have to explain it to somebody. Right. So I was using that as a way to study for the IRC certification exams. There you go. And as I cleared, you know, like did the building went took the building certification exam, did the plumbing, pass that electrical and mechanical, and, and got my, my combination, IRC cert. And that was, I don't know, probably, like 2007 or so. And then about, you know, fast forward. Douglas Hansen, who is the primary author on code check, and has been since the 90s. was, again, kind of a twist of fate, a member of our chapter. And he came up to me one night at a chapter meeting, this has probably been about close to seven years back and said, he said, would you come outside? I thought, first thing I thought is what did I do to tick him off? Which I've done a few times.

John Laforme: 4:09

And you know, you do have a sense of humor.

Skip Walker: 4:14

He is my niece tells me uncle skip, you're you're not as funny as you think you are. So, anyway, Douglas takes me outside and he said, Would you be interested in co authoring code check with me and I thought, you know, kind of like, bang inside of my head and like, did I did you say what I thought you said, Nice. And I said, Are you kidding? Of course I would. And so anyway,

John Laforme: 4:41

that's a good compliment right there.

Skip Walker: 4:42

Yeah, that's great. We're like seven Yeah, some books and now started so you're,

John Laforme: 4:50

you're also a you're a co author of the book is what you're saying? Yep.

Skip Walker: 4:53

i That's how I started. When he asked me to do that I joined and they were that point, he at that point was finishing building fourth edition, and which is the building provisions, chapters one through 10 in the IRC. And so I edited and proof read that book. So I'm not on it as an author, but there's like little microscopic text that says, Thanks for proofreading or something. And then the book since then I've been I've been a co author doing Gocek, eighth and ninth edition now where I was today working on proofreading code, check 10th, which won't be going to the printer for a little a few weeks yet, but this is the most current. This is our kind of our flagship original book. That was ninth edition. And cochair kind of came into being in a kind of a strange way. Redwood Carden who you see his name on all the books, he's the guy that originally came up with the idea. And he was actually an electrical inspector over in the city of Oakland. So right across the bay, and one day, they call them all into the office and said, You're not going to be dedicated inspectors. Now you're everybody's going to do everything. So you're all combination inspectors, go forth, and, and don't send. So he didn't know anything about plumbing or building or mechanical. So he started putting together these little cheat sheets for that stuff. So he know what to look for. And that turned into something he called Woody's fast facts. And

John Laforme: 6:48

they, they kind of catchy.

Skip Walker: 6:51

Yeah. Anyway, so he, at some point or another, I really don't remember whether it was taught and press reaching out to him or him reaching out to Titan. But the him and taught and Prescott hooked up, they actually came up with the name code check. And still and have a copyrighted. And we sold 1,400,000 books. And since 1997, that's great.

John Laforme: 7:19

That's, you know, because I, because I recently contacted you about it, I actually purchased a couple of the latest volumes. recently. And that's, that's a good me to call you. And because I wasn't thinking when I ordered the book, I was like, Oh, let me destroy them. Me upgrade my book, because it's been a while since I bought another one. And then I'm looking at it going, Oh, skips names on here. That's right. I totally spaced it, because I think I had had an encounter with you whether it was on his one of the group meetings on Zoom or something like that a while back. So we haven't had a chance to really talk to each other a lot. You and I so we don't know each other that well. But I have noticed that you remember

Skip Walker: 7:59

you ask him questions and comments and like a Silicon Valley meeting chat? Yeah, yeah. My home my home. CREIA actually chapter Yeah, that

John Laforme: 8:07

we're you know, that, that that meeting there, it, it kind of took me by surprise. When I was listening to that meeting, because all the guys you had on there, all the inspectors, you guys were like really going deep, like deep, deep, deep into electrical. And, you know, as a home inspector and listening to all the other inspectors over the years talking and everybody given their input on what you should and shouldn't be doing. We always tell each other Oh, don't be recording, don't be reporting code on one thing, unless you're gonna report it on everything. So it kind of makes me want to ask you a question there. It brings up a good question. So you're, I understand knowing what the codes are is a good, it's a good knowledge to have, especially when you're inspecting houses, you want to know what's wrong, you know, if that looks off, how do you know it's off? Well, you know, I happen to read the code books, and I know what's going on. So a new inspector coming in. They're not going to know this. So what kind of what kind of advice would you give to a brand new inspector coming in? who's just getting you just becoming aware of all these, you know, code checkbooks, the fact that he should not be reporting code because home inspectors don't report code, as far as I'm concerned, as far as I understand, unless you're going to tell me something different.

Skip Walker: 9:34

Well, I would say for a newbie coming in someone new going through school doesn't make you an inspector. Unfortunately, that's, that's that will probably teach you enough to be dangerous. And and I count I put myself in that category, too. There. There used to be a guy up here and Jerry McCarthy, who was the guy that kind of mentored me and Jerry was the kind of guy that they name awards after the Jerry McCarthy Fellow award is the is the second highest honor that you can get. And CREIA, which is the the oldest state organization certifying organization in California, and one of the two oldest in the United States. So he always used to tell us, you know, you follow the SOPs. And don't guess, don't get out in front of yourself and saying, I don't know is okay. Yep. You know, you can you can say, I don't know, but I'll find out. And then go research where you do that, the more you learn, and the fewer times you have to say, I don't know. So I, I do, actually, in reports, sometimes put code citations, I never say this isn't a code, right? Because that's the that's the role of a jurisdictional inspector correct is to interpret the code. I would one of the things that both Douglas Hansen and Jerry used to say is, uh, Jerry was adamant about not doing code inspections, because I agree with that, you're not going there to go through the house and write up a punch list and a correction notice, that's a jurisdictional inspector, you're doing life and safety and habitability. The California Business and Professions Code is the governing regulation. And it says that we're supposed to identify anything that affects safety, habitability value and desirability, which is a really poorly written section. But that's what happens when you have Realtors writing your regulations for you as a home inspector.

John Laforme: 12:03

So yeah, that's never good.

Skip Walker: 12:06

No, they have no, no desire to make our job easy. And at least at the state level, I think there's a lot there's a ton of really great real estate agents out there. Car I. I have mixed feelings about I would say overall. But back to the code issue. Hanson always used to say, you know, there's nothing that says you can't cite code, just don't be wrong. And since most people aren't in a position to know what right and wrong is, I think that sort of backs into you shouldn't be doing it. I, I do the other day I, I, I put a code citation and a report where there's electrical panel and it's attached building was just signed off by the city. As a matter of fact, the city inspector was still there. when I'm, when I'm inspecting,

John Laforme: 13:05

when you get on he gave him a low score.

Skip Walker: 13:08

Well, I mean, it was wrong. Yeah. And the course the agents are all like, well, the city signed off on it. And I said, like, you know, from your lips to God's ears, that should mean something. But, you know, I don't want to offend anybody. But on the other hand, I'm not going to sign off on something are not going to say it's okay, just because some jurisdictional guy missed something. Well,

John Laforme: 13:32

if you know, you know, I mean, if you know something's wrong, then then you know, then you got you got

Skip Walker: 13:37

a gun I gave him I don't put the citation, I don't put the words and right at the very end of the of the comment, I'll say ref CRC, blah, blah, blah. And I told them where to go look. And they if they want to avail themselves of that, that's great. If they don't, I don't really care. It's not my job to make them pay attention, or even fix stuff. I just want to make sure. Later on, if somebody comes in behind me, an electrician and says, Well, this is wrong. And your home inspector should have told you that I can point at a piece of paper and say no, I told you pretty clearly. So

John Laforme: 14:16

let me let me let me go back real quick. You made a comment a little while ago, that really caught my attention because it's something that you know, I always say, but mostly to myself.

Skip Walker: 14:29

And that is I talk to myself a lot too. Yeah. And

John Laforme: 14:31

that is, you know, taking a course does not make you a home inspector. So along those lines of what you mentioned earlier, so that that's that's a very good topic right there. So huge. Yeah, I want to get into that with you right now. Because that that's something that these new inspectors need to understand. And look, you can go get a certification anywhere you want. It's honestly In my opinion, I've been down that road, I've got certifications in different things. And at the end of the day, that people calling you to inspect their house, don't give a shit about your certifications, you're going to get a few people that are wise to what's going on. And they will understand what your certifications are very few, though. And I think a lot of these new guys are getting these certifications really quickly, without really having a lot of experience. And then to going out there and getting themselves in trouble. So this business degree, yeah, this business, this business is about on the job experience, I can't stress that enough. If you haven't done a paid inspection yet, and you're working your way towards it, you need to go inspect every single relative of yours house that you can get your hands on every one of your friends, their friends, go through a whole bunch of them, and really understand what's you know, what's in a house. Because if, you know, if you're just if you're just getting into this field, and you don't really have a, you know, construction background or any, like you never built a deck on a house, so you never never roof the house before, if you have no understanding of how these things work. There's a lot of liability here. And you really need to understand that getting into this. So taking courses, you will learn something, but nothing's going to replace on the job training on the job experience.

Skip Walker: 16:32

Absolutely agree. I Jerry McCarthy always used to say, everybody wants to forget their first 100 inspections. And I and I, I'm I'm right there. I mean, I look back at some of my original reports. It's like, Oh, my God, what is it? And I think there's you go through stages, you know, I mean, from like, 100, you start to kind of get your legs a little bit. And then at 500, you hit another plateau and 1000, you hit another. And each of those times you go through these, like massive rewrites of your life. Yeah, trying to fix the past sins, or your responses. Yeah, I do it all the time. Never. That never, that never goes away. Anybody that anybody that tells me that they they just use the library that fill in the blank software company sent them. They scare me, because those libraries are static at best, right? And fraught with liability. And they quite often aren't California specific. Right? I have guys. I have a termite guy that he asked me one day, this has probably been about six months ago, he said that they change the rules on guardrails in California to back to 36. And I said, No, it's 42 inches, even though the IRC says 36, California has got a what they call unnecessary amendment. And he said, I was just with an inspector the other day and new guy. And, and I said something about the guardrails. He's like, Oh, no, they're fine. They're, they're more than 36. And I know what it is, you know, he's, if you read, you know, one of these, or, you know, one of our books, which are based on the IRC, it's gonna say, 36 inches, and then there's a little asterix, and then it says, California is 42. But if you don't read that stuff, or if you read the base code, or if you take a class from a national organization, all that stuff is going to be based on kind of generic model codes. It's not going to be based on California. real differences between California and rec codes in other parts of the country, correct?

John Laforme: 18:58

Yeah, that's definitely correct. So yeah, I mean, like, going back to the responses on, you know, I will think I have my response. For like, a very common thing. I have a canned response. You know, I go through it every few months, and then all of a suddenly I'll get, I'll get a question from a customer. And it makes me think about rewriting that whole thing because they, they looked at it at a, in a perspective I didn't never thought of before. And it's like, slowly, it's really interesting, and that alone is valuable. But you that you will never get that from me or from you. You're going to get it from a customer who's just going to say something to you and you're gonna go whoa, you know what, I never thought of it in that realm before Okay, let me rewrite this a little bit better to cover that.

Skip Walker: 19:48

No, I look at report my reports and and when I first started out, I would get phone calls. You know, someone would say What do you mean about what do you mean about this? The other thing you And I would take every one of those things. If I got more than a couple of phone calls on the same comment, then that comments not telling people what it needs to tell them and I might rewrite it today, knock on wood, I get almost no phone calls. I'm serious. It's not that I don't want to encourage people to call. But if the report doesn't answer their questions, then that's on me.

John Laforme: 20:25

Right? I very seldomly get phone calls to sometimes, you

Skip Walker: 20:29

know, guys are on here that have been inspectors for years, and they talk about how they just get phone call after phone call. And so I got to take so much time. So like, I don't want to, I don't want to like badmouth anybody, but Okay, so you got to take some ownership of that problem and fix it.

John Laforme: 20:44

Yeah, that report writing is not up to par. That's what it is. So maybe just maybe just address it that way. Well, hey, you know what, let's work on your report writing, what how you wording stuff? Because if you're just making it generic and not not understanding it, yeah, it's anyone's going to call you for clarity. And I do tell my customers every day, hey, look, if you read the report, and something, you don't, something doesn't make sense to just call me up. And I'll clarify it for you. But like I said, I very rarely get that. Yeah, I

Skip Walker: 21:12

tell people, you can call me anytime from or email me from now until the cows come home. I had somebody call me one time, five, six years after I did the report to SP where the water shut off was. And seriously? No, it was the it was the electric it was the electric disconnect. And because they had some problem with the house, and they didn't remember, I don't know how they remembered my phone number, but they didn't remember.

John Laforme: 21:42

Well, actually, that was probably the first time they opened the report.

Skip Walker: 21:47

Well, so you know, when I would start, when I first started, I didn't put I didn't put a lot of pitchers in I mean, you know, I did put some in, but I put a few in. And almost right away, people would would call me and say where's the water shut off? Where's the gash off? Where's the electric shut off? And it says right in the report, the watershed office located at the gas is that and, and so I thought, okay, so clearly, I'm not communicating properly in Word. So I at that point, and this is 20 years ago, I started putting photos and of gas, Water and Electric. And I didn't think anybody was that I know it was doing that at that point. And I stopped getting phone calls.

John Laforme: 22:30

Okay, well, if the lonely but it takes that back out of your report. If you miss the phone calls, just take that out of your report. Yeah,

Skip Walker: 22:39

yeah. It. But the point is, you know, let's, let's answer the questions in the report and not have to deal with it after the fact. Because that's just, it's just time that's wasted. And I don't think you're giving the clients good value if you if you're writing reports, such that they have to call you for clarification all the time.

John Laforme: 23:01

And not to mention, that's one man's opinion. Yeah, sure. And not to mention, you know, when you have to take a bunch of phone calls every week, you know, you're wasting Well, I wouldn't call it wasting their time, but you're wasting your time. Because now you could be doing something else like riding today's report, that now you're you're tied up and so so it's kind of like you're always going backwards. And that's not something I believe in. I just like to keep

Skip Walker: 23:29

wasting their time, too. I mean, you're having to take time to connect and oh, yeah, that's true. You

John Laforme: 23:35

know, but anyway, but if that is don't know, yeah, if they just don't know some write

Skip Walker: 23:39

reports to answer questions, so they don't want to beg questions want to answer them? Did

John Laforme: 23:43

you know that skip Walker was also one of the co authors of the code check series, you can find that code check.com That co dcheck.com. The code check Series books are the most widely used code reference series in the US. Each code check book is a condensed guide to the most commonly used code sections. They include many of the most common code violations encountered by building inspectors, contractors, do it yourselfers and homeowners. new editions of codes typically are issued every three years. Each edition of code check is based on specific sets of codes and most books include summaries of code changes, to link them to the prior edition of codes as well. With over 1.3 million copies sold and since 1995, code check is the leader in navigating and understanding the volume in this complex and sometimes tedious world of the codes. Code check your key to the codes. One of my favorite parts is the code check illustrations option. So for 149 95 you can download up to 358 full color, high res illustrations that you are allowed to add to your home inspection report if you want to better explain to a client with a good visual aid, or do your code check series today at code check.com. So as far as the code check goes, talking, I want to I want to kind of keep this guided towards, you know, somebody starting out new home inspectors how to utilize these books. So

Skip Walker: 25:23

I would suggest a couple of things to people. Number one is, follow your standards of practice, whatever they are, you know, ashy or CREIA. I do litigation work. And one of the biggest problems I see is people, I even had, I had a case just like last, it was probably last year, where the guy's contract said he is the CREIA standards of practice. And then his report said he used ashy, no way, you got to pick one side of the fence to be on. And then I'll stay there. Because they're not the same, right? Different. Those two and it could be InterNACHI, whatever it is, you know, pick, pick an SOP. And then as a new person, don't try to exceed the standards, you know, you know, you'll have enough on your plate, just hitting a baseline SOP compliant report, and do that and do it really well. And then if you want to start ratcheting your game up, that's a good time to do it.

John Laforme: 26:27

So good advice,

Skip Walker: 26:29

I suggest to people. Our initial book, which is what we call code check combo is 32 pages, and it's a quarter of its building a quarter of its electrical quarter of its mechanical on a quarter of its plumbing. So it's a little bit of everything. I would not, and that's as opposed to this book here, which is code check complete. That's 200 And I'm sorry, 350 pages of stuff. This is too much for a new person. You know, this is like drinking from a firehose.

John Laforme: 27:10

I gotta I gotta be honest with you that books too much for me to not just a new person. So

Skip Walker: 27:15

this is this is all I you know, we get people all the time, like, I'm a new inspector, which one of these should I buy? And this is where I shoot them. And this is also the cheapest book. It's 20 bucks, right? So it gives you a little flavor. All the code checkbooks are really designed around. The basic kind of stuff that you would that you would run into, if you were a jurisdictional inspector doing rough and final exam, final inspections, so they're gonna hit the high points, the stairs, what's the tread and riser limitations, handrails on stairs, guardrails, deck heights before you need a guardrail, basic deck construction, electrical panels and electrical disconnects and water mains and bonding and grounding and all that kind of stuff. It hits all that stuff. So don't don't try to bite off more than you can chew

John Laforme: 28:21

just and I just got this one from it. Yeah,

Skip Walker: 28:24

that's that's building that's a 52 page 50 page book, just building provisions. And so that's bigger than this one. And it's all I'm sorry. Yeah. The other one was mechanical. So that's the 50 page. Plumbing mechanicals a 50 page book that's just Plumbing and Mechanical. So this is this is 30 pages, that's more than enough for a new person to kind of to kind of start cutting their teeth on for most people, they're never going to want to go that much deeper until they get they get more comfortable with you know with the basics and then they may want to dive in my suggestion to people is find the thing you're most uncomfortable with and make that your focus because if you kind of have a handle on building and you're not too uncomfortable with Plumbing and Mechanical but you're scared to death of electrical than that then make yourself an electrical expert and that's an electrical

John Laforme: 29:32

is always a mystery man. Always that's why people

Skip Walker: 29:36

are are scared to death of electrical and you know what they should be because it kills people if they do it wrong. But but the point being is take your your weakness and make a strength and then it really up your game that I I teach classes are like the Ashley and CREIA Conferences and also I teach for building inspectors and it's part of getting my ICC credentials and doing code check on what's classified as an ICC preferred education provider. So I can teach class at C classes for for building jurisdictional inspectors. And, and do I wish I could find a way to actually make a living teaching because I actually enjoy it a whole bunch. But the point being is, I started out where everybody that's listening to this is, and that's not no one of vary a whole lot. And what I didn't do is every time I found something I didn't understand, I didn't call Jerry McCarthy or somebody else that you know, the old gray hair guys, and ask them, I spent a bunch of time researching until I couldn't figure it out on my own. And then I would call them. Yeah, ask them what was going on? And after a while, I didn't have to do that very much.

John Laforme: 31:07

Yeah, that's what I do. That's what I do. I reach out to people that got more experienced than me that may, you know, may have first hand experience what I'm running just ran into, and I'm like, hey, you know what, I can't find any clarity on this, you got any process

Skip Walker: 31:19

is going to make you so much better than inspector. Because a lot of what we do is like, you know, it's like CSI for homes. It's like crime scene investigation. I mean, you walk into some homes, and they really are like, it's a crime that it got built. It is. I always tell people, there's no perfect houses, they do not exist. And the reality is, we have a lot of tech people up here. So I always use software analogies. It's like, you know, tell me the last time you ever shipped software release that was perfect, and they all laugh and I said the same thing with this house. You know, this, this house if it's a 1500 square foot house has a million million and a half pieces to it. You count every nut bolt screw piece of wood. Somebody was having a bad day. So my goal is to figure out who that was. They're usually okay with that.