CREIA Standards Of Practice Section 1 Foundation, Basement, and Under-Floor Areas

Episode 8: CREIA Standards Of Practice Part 1 Foundation, Basement, and Under-Floor Areas.

This episode has special guest Bud Hayes from Hayes Inspection Group, Bud is a CREIA certified inspector as well. Bud and I break down each sub section and explain the standards of practice.

CREIA Standards of Practice

Residential Standards of Practice - Four or Fewer Units

Part I. Definitions and Scope

These Standards of Practice provide guidelines for a home inspection and define certain terms relating to these inspections. Italicized words in these Standards are defined in Part IV, Glossary of Terms.

A.    A home inspection is a noninvasive visual survey and basic operation of the systems and components of a home which can be reached, entered, or viewed without difficulty, moving obstructions, or requiring any action which may result in damage to the property or personal injury to the Inspector. The purpose of the inspection is to provide the Client with information regarding the general condition of the building(s) to assist client in determining what further evaluation, inspection, and repair estimates Client should perform or obtain prior to the release of contingencies.
B.     A home inspection report provides written documentation of material defects discovered in the inspected building’s systems and components which, in the opinion of the Inspector, are safety hazards, are not functioning properly, or appear to be at the ends of their service lives. The report may include the Inspector's recommendations for correction or further evaluation.
C.     All further evaluation, inspection, and repair work needs to be provided by competent and qualified professionals who are licensed and/or certified.
D.    Client should consider all available information when negotiating regarding the Property.
E.     Inspections performed in accordance with these Standards of Practice are not technically exhaustive and shall apply to the primary building and its associated primary parking structure.
F.     Cosmetic and aesthetic conditions shall not be considered

Part II. S

Transcript

John Laforme: 0:00

Buying a home? Don't panic. Just listen to the rest of this podcast welcome to Home Inspection authority Straight Talk podcast with me, John laforme. Are you a homebuyer, a realtor, or maybe a home inspector? If you are, then this podcast is definitely for you. So let's get right into some straight talk about home inspections. Okay, welcome back, everybody. Another episode for you here episode eight. Today we're going to talk about the Korea standards of practice. So who better to call and talk about this than the one and only bud Hayes, who's been doing inspections a lot longer than I have, and has a really good understanding of what the CREIA standards are. So give me a second here. And I'll just introduce bud.

Bud Hayes: 1:02

I don't but doing good. Thank you for inviting me.

John Laforme: 1:05

No problem, man. Bud and I have been to many CREIA meetings together. We've done some inspections together over the years. And we've always had a good rapport with each other. So I thought he'd be a good guest here today to explain this whole CREIA thing. And the standards of practice. So so but just give me a little info on, you know, what's the standards of practice all about you?

Bud Hayes: 1:32

Well, first of all, I'm sure your guests or the viewers understand that CREIA stands for California real estate inspection Association. The basic background on CREIA is that somewhere in the 80s, the lot changed for real estate brokers and agents that they should get home inspectors done. And that's about when Korea developed there are some home inspectors at that time. But as CREIA develop, they go, you know, we really need to get down what our standards are. Right. So a lot of work went into a lot of really good inspectors developing this. All of the standard checklist. Yes,

John Laforme: 2:23

so still, the standards of practice is basically a checklist for home inspectors. So here's a good scenario I came up with, as to why it's important to have this. Let's say you go to work tomorrow. And all of a suddenly your software company goes down. And you don't even have a paper paper written report is on standby. You have nothing with you. And then you're like, Well, wait a second. Let me just go to the CREIA site, I can grab the standards of practice. And I can use that as my report template just to follow something just so I don't miss anything. So I think that's a great, a great thing to think of as a backup. In the event your software goes down and you have no written paper report. I dont know anyone that carries paper reports anymore. But but if you really had to, I guess you could use this if you get stuck in a jam took a lot of photos, and just follow the standards and that you wouldn't forget anything.

Bud Hayes: 3:28

Well, that would definitely give you a good outline. Yeah. Yeah. Most reports software gets much more detailed. Of course, you know, yeah. Just the things about the water heater, there's probably 18 things to report on and.

John Laforme: 3:42

Right, so we're gonna get into that today. Okay.

Bud Hayes: 3:46

So I think the first thing that I'd say most of my clients, if they've never had an inspection done before, they don't realize exactly what I'm doing there. Exactly. Yeah. And so whatever their conception is, so if you want me to I could read part like these parts of the,

John Laforme: 4:11

I mean, definitions and scope. Well, the

Bud Hayes: 4:14

A, B and C. Well, ABCD and E and F.

John Laforme: 4:19

Yeah, that's a good idea. Actually. That's a good idea.

Bud Hayes: 4:22

So the first paragraph is pretty good. A home inspection is a non invasive visual survey and basic operation of the systems and components of a home, which can be reached, entered or viewed without difficulty moving or requiring any action which may result in damage to the property or personal injury to the inspector. The purpose of the inspection is to provide the client with information regarding the general condition of the building to assist the client in determining what further evaluation inspection and repair estimates, client should perform or obtained prior to the release of contingencies.

John Laforme: 5:10

Alright, so let me let me jump in here. Sure, this last sentence that you just said, client with information regarding the general condition of the building to assist client in determining what further evaluation inspection and repair estimates client should perform, or obtain prior to the release of contingencies. That is a really, really important sentence right there. That is something most of our clients don't get. They think we're going to come there and give them a price sheet on everything and tell them what it's going to cost. And, and this so this sentence to me is the one of the most important ones said, let them know at the end of the inspection, hey, look, you know what I saw a lot of electrical safety hazards here, you need to get an electrician here now, before the end of your inspection contingency period. And before you close escrow, to take a look at this and let you know what it's going to cost to fix all this. So that's the importance of that sentence, our direction to the client when we're done.

Bud Hayes: 6:19

That exactly like a lot of times what I explained to my clients is I'm similar to your primary care physician giving a general checkup, I may go through all the basic systems. And then if I see problems that I think needs further evaluation, you know, that's my basic job.

John Laforme: 6:38

Right? Right. You need an eye doctor next, you know, yeah,

Bud Hayes: 6:41

and sometimes I can still tell, well, this is a minor repair, but it needs to be looked at or its major or this is significant, and possibly needs to get all replaced. I mean, I kind of categorize it to that for them. So that's good. You know, do you want to hire a electrician to come out and look at re evaluate the property for a few $100 Just to fix that one outlet? Right. So the client needs to make that decision?

John Laforme: 7:11

Yes. You've just given them the facts. Yeah, that's it. I'm gonna read V. Yeah, go for it. All right, I'm gonna read paragraph B. A Home Inspection Report provides written documentation of material defects discovered in the inspected building systems and components which, in the opinion of the inspector, our safety hazards, are not functioning properly, or appear to be at the end of this service of our lives. The report may include the inspectors recommendations for correction or further evaluation. Once again, the report may include the inspectors recommendations for correction or further evaluation. Those are the important things that the customer needs to grasp. And really, okay, I get it. You're here to tell me now, indeed, you point me in the right direction. You're telling me I need to get this looked at further and this looked at further Okay, Mr. Inspector, I understand, right.

Bud Hayes: 8:11

One thing I wanted to just point out here is the definition of material defect. So material basically means important or significant. Sometimes people even that's that part of it, and then says the inspectors recommendations for corrections at the end of this. So now, this is where I've had a lot of people tell me don't give them specific recommendations. And it's not the inspector to go, Oh, your deck is leaking and I wreck you need to fix this section. And if they fix that, and still leaking, it might be other places too. So you have to be very careful in your recommendation. The recommendation should be let's have a general contractor that's experienced with Dec qualified professional guess. qualified professional, not Uncle Harry.

John Laforme: 9:08

Yeah. Or Uncle Bob. Yeah. A lot of his work lately.

Bud Hayes: 9:12

So it's, so that's what our recommendations lead times people tell me Well, how do I fix that and so forth, and I go, well, is my opinion but we need further evaluation in order to really accurately repair or replace that item. Exactly. Yep. So you want to go to see

John Laforme: 9:37

Alright, paragraph see. All further evaluation, inspection and repair work needs to be provided by competent and qualified professionals who are licensed and or certified. Once again, another important one

Bud Hayes: 9:54

that's very important at first what I think we both run into, we go out and do an inspection And we have a list of 20 or 30 items that need correction. And then they call you back in a couple of weeks and want you to come out and re evaluate this or check, there's repairs and you go, Okay. Well, the first thing they're supposed to have is copies of work orders and receipts. They called an invoice. Yeah. And most of the time, they don't. And so you know, who fixed it?

John Laforme: 10:27

So you're, what you're referring to is a re inspection. Yes. Okay. So let's talk about that real quick while we're on the subject. Okay. So re inspections to me, I stopped doing inspections years ago, for that exact reason. Every time I went back, nothing was done correctly. Nothing was done by a professional, there was no receipts, and I just felt like my client was getting screwed. You know what I mean? Like, no one did anything to the house, I literally went back on a couple houses, nothing was changed. And they told the buyers, everything was everything was fixed. And I'm like, I just look at the buyer. I feel bad for him. I'm like, wow, I'm really sorry, I have to tell you this, but nothing at all has been touched in this house. And then as you dig a little further, oh, well, the electrician fix this part might owe the electrician so he was a licensed electrician, I always trip them up. I always I love tripping them up. It's just about which question that he just got to know which question to ask them. And they kind of and they kind of take the bite debate and they fall on their face with that. So I stopped doing them for that reason, because I try to really emphasize to the customer is you need to have these repairs done by qualified people, people who are insured people who actually have a business, you know, so true. And that's what happens. So I always try to really push that don't call a handyman to do your electrical work. Don't do if you need a doorknob change, call a handyman, that's fine. You need some molding put around your baseball a bowl baseboards, put on or whatever, just that stuff you call a handyman for. So I really push that hard, and hopefully they listen a lot of times they do, and then asked me to come back and do re inspections. I'll only do that if the the gas was off. Or maybe the water was off. I'll go back for that because I can actually do something then.

Bud Hayes: 12:30

You know, that's more of a completion inspection then yeah,

John Laforme: 12:33

yeah. So you want to call D?

Bud Hayes: 12:38

Sure, D clients should consider all available information when negotiating regarding the property.

John Laforme: 12:47

That's, that's, that's a no brainer. You know, that's, that's the purpose of hiring us to give you information so you can act on it.

Bud Hayes: 12:55

That does remind me that's one thing I do when it's inside the city of LA I can get en la DBS website which is Department of Building and Safety and you can check for the online permits. Okay, yeah, so building permits so a lot of times I will now not all permits get properly transmitted on the website but a lot of times it'll tell me a good clue like you know, what's the history and I you know, yeah 6070 year old house so there's no other permits after the original construction you go okay, something's going on. What about this edition? And yeah, so I almost always recommend to check for any of the permits outside of city La there's not very good resource, you have to go to the Department of Buildings insert safety for that city or municipality. But anyway, that would be under all available information.

John Laforme: 14:01

Right. So what I do what I do and I see an upgrade, I call it out. Water Heater upgrade present check with seller regarding permitted installation. Same with a foundation same with attic framing. Same with heating and cooling electrical upgrade, I checked that off and when I see it, just so to make them aware that it permits should have been pulled for these types of certs, these types of repairs and replacements. Well, good at something that's something that's a tip for all home inspectors, I hope you're all doing that because I think it's very important as part of you giving your customer all the facts.

Bud Hayes: 14:44

Now this We're redoing the residential standards of practices here, right, which is four or fewer units correct. So once it becomes five units on a property then it's classified as commercial, right property that If there's a triplex or four Plex, some of my clients are investors that are buying it for, right, you know, they're not living in for their single, you know, their basic primary house. Right. So all that available information. I do a lot of litigation inspections. So okay, tenant landlord disputes. So one of the biggest problems you can run into is if you have a rental unit, you know, they converted the garage without a permit, and you're putting somebody in that house is a tremendous amount of liability you have so and if there's any dispute between the tenant landlord, you know, the tenant, it's occupies an unpermitted unit just wins automatically.

John Laforme: 15:58

Absolutely. So state of California. Absolutely.

Bud Hayes: 16:02

Yeah. I've seen guys get, you know, free rent for six or 12 months and just all kinds

John Laforme: 16:08

of stuff. That's a whole other episode right there.

Bud Hayes: 16:11

Yeah. But this is all under the all available information here. Oh, yeah. Check out the history what's going on with the property? Right? Yeah, when

John Laforme: 16:21

in doubt, call it out. It's, it's just a simple thing. If you think there's an upgrade, but you're not quite sure if it's better call it out and bring attention to it, then ignore it. But we're going to get really in depth on exclusions from home inspections later. Right. Now, let's right now, let's, let's get into you ready to move on to the standards?

Bud Hayes: 16:45

You know, there's a couple other items here E and F, I think,

John Laforme: 16:48

Oh, that's okay. I thought you went through that already. Oh,

Bud Hayes: 16:50

he is inspections performed in accordance with these standards of practice and are not technically exhaustive. And shall not apply to the primary building shall apply. Oh, and should excuse me and shall apply to the primary building and to its associated primary parking structure. Okay, so there's a bunch of things in here. So for instance, a shed in the backyard is not part of that.

John Laforme: 17:25

horse stables,

Bud Hayes: 17:27

technically, right. Or if they want us inspected, it would be an additional outbuilding inspection, right, an

John Laforme: 17:34

adu. auxilary dwelling unit show up at the property. And they didn't tell you oh, by the way, there's an extra living area. Well, if you want to inspect that, that'll be more money. Number one, but it's it's a it's a additional structure. So it's not required to do it.

Bud Hayes: 17:51

That's yeah, that's right. So I think that pretty well speaks for itself.

John Laforme: 17:59

Well, I want to get get into that a little bit more. Okay. So gas pits.

Bud Hayes: 18:07

Gas pit. Yeah,

John Laforme: 18:08

another thing that is not to be expected, as part of a home inspection, as far as I as far as my business goes, that's how I run my business, and x, the outdoor barbecues, you know, stuff like that, you know, I'm going to take a look and see if there's a gas line, go into it, you know, check the GFCI make sure that GFCI receptacles around it, make sure it's safe. But I'm not going to be trying to fire up your grill. I'm not going to be trying to light your gas pit. I'm not going to do your swimming pool, either. A swimming pool, we're required to check out safety issues. But we're not required to inspect your swimming pool.

Bud Hayes: 18:49

That's correct. Yeah. It's a whole different standard than what's on the right.

John Laforme: 18:55

So is that there are a lot of limitations to the home inspection as well. And so we're covering both of those right now.

Bud Hayes: 19:03

And I'm not sure if that's in there. Is it? Yeah, pool safety?

John Laforme: 19:07

Yeah, we're gonna get to that. Okay. We may not get to that today, but it may get that to another episode. So

Bud Hayes: 19:13

I should add something I know, outdoor barbecues are usually exterior, the different gasline a whole different components. And the multi inspector company I used to work for, it said, you don't have to do that. But I usually would write one one time out of 100 that I didn't for some reason. The customer called in and complained and I had to try it back out. Oh, man, I knew I should have looked at that. Because that's a concern of theirs. So yeah, but

John Laforme: 19:49

now I understand different companies do different things. So once again, the Korea standards are practice is just a guide. As a business owner, we have to make a decision on what we want to do, but at the same time, if there's something in the standards that a certain company doesn't want to do, they're going to make the client aware of that before the job. You know, it's going to be your inspection agreement. Yeah. I mean, I do I do, if there's something I know I'm not going to look at, it's called out right away. Client, if they asked me what I'm going to do, I explain everything, and I tell them what I'm not going to do as well. So it's really important that you cover all those bases. So like I said, this standards of practice is a guide for you to follow. And try not to fall off.

Bud Hayes: 20:36

Yeah, absolutely. So you know, that goes back to the beginning thing we were talking about, you know, it can be reached injured or viewed without difficulty, etc. So, you know, limitations, there's some limitations,

John Laforme: 20:50

limitations are just as important to right up as a defect. You have to let people know what you could not look at or what you could not test, so that you don't look like you're incompetent later, because oh, why didn't you tell me to do that? Well, I forgot.

Bud Hayes: 21:07

The guy's expensive sports car parked in the garage and the garage. attic hatch is right above his car and right, like no, not gonna

John Laforme: 21:15

make it worth it. Yeah. Don't try to be the hero. Don't put a piece of carpet on top of this car and then stand on it.

Bud Hayes: 21:22

Yeah. Not a good idea. But we'll take a picture, put it in a report. Yeah, there's

John Laforme: 21:28

a Lamborghini here a really nice one. But they wouldn't let me drive it. So I couldn't back it up. So okay, so yeah, there's gonna be a lot of limitations. But I think as we get into each section, but we can go in detail on each sections limitations.

Bud Hayes: 21:45

That sounds great. Yeah. So okay, part

John Laforme: 21:49

two is standards of practice. Let's see, the home inspection includes the readily accessible systems and components or a representative a number of multiple similar components listed in sections, one through nine, subject to limitations, exceptions, and exclusions and part three. Okay, so let me put a little light on that. So for example, I'm sure the house you're looking at is going to have more than one wall receptacle. So if the home is furnished, we can't reach every receptacle because they'll be behind couches, there'll be behind arm wires, that dress or whatever, is going to be a very limited amount that we can actually get to. So that's what this is describing here. Multiple similar components, a number, a representative amount of multiple similar components. That's what that means. So it means that we're not going to be able to check every single thing, if there's a limit, if there's a restriction there, or furniture or whatever.

Bud Hayes: 22:49

Absolutely. I did one in a condo the other day that the lady had every outlet things plugged into it. On almost every outlet, it's like, I'm not going to go around and start unplugging her electronic equipment and chargers and correct alarm clocks or so. So that would be a limitation. That would be nice courtesy.

John Laforme: 23:13

Yeah. Keep in mind, keep in mind homebuyers, when you hire us, you haven't bought the house yet. Yeah. So if someone else lives there, we're not gonna go and plug their favorite electric toothbrush. As they get upset over those things. We're not going to disconnect their alarm clocks, because they get upset over those things. And they'll call us and yell at us. So yeah, we're not going to do those things. So that's why there's limitations when you're buying a home, especially if it's still occupied.

Bud Hayes: 23:41

Okay. So you want to go into the first section here about foundation? Yeah. So foundation basement and under floor areas? You mean crawlspace? is right. That could be yes. If it's a raised Foundation, correct? Yeah. I think they use the word just under floor areas is Yeah, good. General. Sure. Whatever. So a items to be inspected one foundation system. Let me read through all these and we can go back over him or

John Laforme: 24:17

no, let's just do one at a time. Okay, what is covered?

Bud Hayes: 24:21

So foundation system. So what comes to mind to me is basically we're going to either have a raised Foundation, which is either going to be concrete, or concrete blocks, maybe bricks, but you know, on the perimeter of the house that supports the house and so that would be a raised foundation where hopefully you can crawl underneath

John Laforme: 24:48

hmm. 16 by 24, right. That's the size of supposed to be anyway. Some of the houses we go to

Bud Hayes: 24:58

Yeah, and I'd have to pull out the codes to see what the exact height clearance is. But a lot of times I can look underneath and go. I can't I can't go more than eight feet. Yeah, so I'll take pictures from here. But that's a reportable item. Right? Hey, there's poor access. That means any work that you have an

John Laforme: 25:19

eye means no one's going under there. If you can't get under and and no one's it's just completely blocked up or whatever. I mean, chances are no one's been in there in quite some time.

Bud Hayes: 25:30

Right? So that means any repairs needed in that area are going to be a lot more expensive.

John Laforme: 25:34

Yes, they got the trench it out, dig it out to get people in their buckets.

Bud Hayes: 25:38

Yeah. And so that would be the one, one system and then I usually just in general, just say a slab. There's different types of slabs. But that's where the concrete is just on the dirt. There's no crawlspace, right, just ground underneath

John Laforme: 25:54

slab on Earth. Yep. So the limitations for what Bud's talking about is really important to write up. As a home inspector, if let's say you were able to get in, I don't know, under the Master, you're able to access under the master bedroom, but not the master bathroom. What's more important, I'd say the bathroom is more important to get under, you want to call out and make sure your report states that you had a limitation and that crawlspace you could not get past a certain point to check the plumbing. And it needs to be further evaluated before your inspection contingencies over.

Bud Hayes: 26:33

I'd like to add something here like this is the first section on the standards. But usually the foundation is the last thing that I look at. Correct. So because I personally like to walk through the house and around the house. And I'm looking for any areas where you know, stretch crack settlement cracks, doors, robbing floors are a little wonky. So any of those things that kind of keep that in mind. So when I go underneath, I can look in those areas. And sure, yeah, see what's happening. I agree. Yeah,

John Laforme: 27:03

that's a good, good practice. So let's talk about the floor framing system. Okay. Now, well, what's the difference? Mr. Inspector, the foundation of the floor framing system, most people have a hard time with that most customers don't differentiate that they think they think anything underneath the house is the foundation. Technically, I guess you

Bud Hayes: 27:26

could say it is foundation area.

John Laforme: 27:28

But right. So a foundation that we're referring to is something like a poured concrete foundation or concrete block, which is typically on the perimeter, unless you have a lot of STEM walls. In the middle of the house, like 1950s homes typically have a lot of staggered stem walls right underneath it in between the perimeters that you crawl around, and there's no post appears. So,

Bud Hayes: 27:53

you know, that's interesting. So let's spend a minute on that because usually, the prude or foundation is a solid that goes around that house. And then in the middle, is a stem wall is where it's a full height concrete wall that goes from dirt up to the floor. So it's similar to the perimeter foundation, then they usually have these gaps or little doorways, yeah, little openings. Through cells, you can get to you know, most which is really a good system.

John Laforme: 28:25

I like that system,

Bud Hayes: 28:27

it's a lot more sturdy, and so forth. And

John Laforme: 28:29

the joists, the floor joists run from one to the other. Yeah.

Bud Hayes: 28:34

So it holds better with earthquakes and, and then if there's minor settlement, it's usually not as big of an issue. Now the other way is what's called a post and peer support, which is a wood post usually about a four by four that sits on a concrete pier block. And so those are just scattered all the way. Right You're along the floor joists and stuff underneath. So now the advantage of that is that the space is a lot more open. So air ventilators easier share our STEM walls sometimes will restrict airflow but the weak part of that is they're not as sturdy under earthquake. Right? And if you have a plumbing leak somewhere dirt gets muddy these things get soft and they

John Laforme: 29:24

could sink think down. Now you get Florida flexion

Bud Hayes: 29:29

and I remember the house that we inspected with your robot we had an infection and thought well I wonder if that's what happened to get in there with a crawl bite and that's what happened at one posted settled by the bathtub leak or something. I'm just looking down the list here so this would technically those posts and peer supports or additional bracing would probably be part of the foundation system here. Or this

John Laforme: 29:54

Yeah, it is there. It's under number four. Foundation anchoring couple up sorry. I'm sorry. It's going The floor yeah floor that'd be on the floor framing. The post appears. Okay, yeah, that would definitely call that under. That's where I have it. That's where I have it in my report. And the floor framing, because it technically it's all wood until you get to the concrete pier.

Bud Hayes: 30:18

Yeah, I usually just have it separate anyway. All right.

John Laforme: 30:22

So that's I mean, that that's, that's gonna be decided between each person who, who makes the report. They make your own while you do what you want.

Bud Hayes: 30:31

Yeah. And then the next section here, number three is under floor ventilation. So that's a very good one.

John Laforme: 30:41

Hang on one second. Let's get back to that in a second. I want there's still more to talk about number two on under floor framing. Okay. Alright, so back to floor framing system for a second. Another thing we're looking at, on the floor framing is any any wood damage as an entity? Is there an active leak that might have damaged a bunch of wood is? Or is there actually wet conditions under there from an active leak? Is there what looks like it might be termite, wood destroying organisms causing wood damage? There's a lot of things we're looking at under there. As far as the floor framing system goes.

Bud Hayes: 31:24

Under understood, I not sure if this is a good time to talk about the difference between our inspection and a termite or pest control. Operator inspection. Well,

John Laforme: 31:33

we can mention that now. Yeah.

Bud Hayes: 31:36

Because what we're looking for is anything that is structurally compromised, or, you know, adversely affecting the structure. So the termite report usually is looking for wood destroying organisms, which includes termites or fungus, rotted wood. Yep. So now of course, if I see rotted wood, I go away, that's not good. Because that is, you know, weakening the structural support of the framing integrity hip. If I see life termite under there, I'm not a termite. Inspector, and so

John Laforme: 32:14

I just call it would damage. I saw some wood damage needs to be further evaluated.

Bud Hayes: 32:18

Sometimes I take a picture. Yep. But that in the report. Yeah, there you go. But there's no this is one reason why I like to walk around the house and do my interiors before I get underneath. Because if you find little places where the floor is going, where you know, there again, going weird or deflection, yeah, deflections,

John Laforme: 32:41

walking uphill, walking downhill.

Bud Hayes: 32:45

And so then when I go underneath the house, I can look closer at those areas to see what's what's going on. Sure. Yeah. So I could talk more, but I think that pretty much covers it.

John Laforme: 32:57

Okay. And let's see, okay. So, once again, limitations, limitations for the foundation, basement under floor areas is kind of all in one. So, if you for example, cannot get under the house at all, then you cannot comment on the foundations condition. You cannot comment on the floor framing condition. You cannot comment on the under floor ventilation condition. You cannot comment on foundation anchoring unless you can see them through the underfloor ventilation holes. Yeah, outside walls. If you see some anchoring, you could say, Okay, I saw some anchoring. We're not required to count how many bolts there are? Or tell you they have they're properly spaced, or anything like that.

Bud Hayes: 33:49

So depends on the year of the construction. Right? So Right. So if it's a

John Laforme: 33:53

1920s house, chances are it does not a bolt there to begin with unless someone's retrofitted it. So with that being said, once again limitations is important. So with separation from soil, another thing you cannot comment on because you could not look under there. So if you cannot get under the house on a raised foundation, you have to call out all these things that you could not you could not see. I'm going to be clear on that.

Bud Hayes: 34:23

Yes, and that would require an approved qualified specialist to make access available, give recommendations, how to dig out or right to access etc. So yeah,

John Laforme: 34:39

I guess some I've been a lot of crawlspaces where there's actually no access to one area and if you're not really paying attention you could walk right by it. Yeah, not even realize the Oh shit. There's a spot right here. And then you you get home and you're looking at the report and going through all your pictures later. And like wait a second. I went around this way I went through what's this? I couldn't see this area. So it's not too late, you know, reports not done yet. You just go, You know what I couldn't see under this area. Sometimes those things happen. Yes. You get spun around. You don't forget where you are underneath, look, or am I. So there's, there's little things that can happen like that. So just like I said, the it's really important. And I want to stress this about every, every part of the standards of practice, you have to write up what you could not inspect. It's just as important as what you did inspect. That's a learning lesson for anybody doing this.

Bud Hayes: 35:33

Yeah. That's still observe and report. Yeah. So if you see that you report on it. Correct? If, if if you can't get in underneath the house, for some reason, you better explain why you can't and as it is, as it is, as it as a disclaimer,

John Laforme: 35:54

and I would definitely let them know that as soon as possible. Before you leave, hopefully.

Bud Hayes: 36:00

Absolutely. Yeah.

John Laforme: 36:02

Don't wait, if unless you like I just said you could you didn't realize you there was a spot you couldn't get to till later understood. But if there's if it's obvious, tell them right away before you leave the inspection. So that get get taken care of right away. Okay, so underfloor ventilation by go.

Bud Hayes: 36:20

Oh, this is I think this is really depends on the geology of the house. But I think this sometimes is extremely critical. Correct. I agree. So I did one inspection and a house up in Canoga Park up in where all the rocks are, and they had no ventilation. Right, but it's high, it's really dry. When access door, it looked, okay. Smelled okay. I go out during heavy rains, there's a lot of natural moisture vapors that come up out of the ground, and you need those screens around the house to allow that excess humidity build the build up to evacuate. Yeah. So most houses that are on flat or anywhere in the valley. If you have limited ventilation, it's going to just stack up the humidity inside. And whenever you get a high humidity, then that allows bacteria fungus and different kinds of molds to grow. Be musty odors, sometimes you can smell them inside the house coming up through the floor boards. Yep. So you've got to have good ventilation underneath the houses to prevent mold. Yeah,

John Laforme: 37:49

it's going to prevent a whole bunch of adverse conditions. If you don't have good ventilation. As soon as you have one leak, and you have no ventilation. It's just like a recipe for disaster. As far as your wood goes, start you'll start getting settlement issues. You get all kinds of stuff going on once you once you get a leak. Yeah, if you have moisture coming in from the outside already. Well, the perimeter,

Bud Hayes: 38:12

you know, exasperated or make it worse. Yeah. So. So I'm going to it's actually fairly common that I'll run into poor ventilation.

John Laforme: 38:26

Same here. So

Bud Hayes: 38:30

very giving them a heads up. And of course, this kind of time of year when it hasn't rained for six months, you're not sure what the condition is, when it starts raining, where's the water table? How much is how much humidity and dampness is going to come up. If you if you don't have if you have really poor ventilation you can actually get so the ground gets wet. If you have better ventilation that it never, you know, keep drying out. Right? Right. So

John Laforme: 39:05

and I and I see this a lot in brand new houses, brand new construction of the crawlspace one or two events and I'm like I gotta tell these people this I hate being put in that position. Why wasn't this done? Right? This insulation everywhere under there. And there's no ventilation there's a couple of crawlspace accesses all they have. I'm like how they get away with this. Interesting

Bud Hayes: 39:29

if you're like me, you're walking around nice new house, the front and the side. You get somewhere. Oh, there's two vents on this side. And there's a patio in the back and it's like you know, right they just don't have enough fence.

John Laforme: 39:44

It's not enough happens a lot.

Bud Hayes: 39:49

Okay, so this other one the woods separation frames.

John Laforme: 39:53

I know you got to do number four foundation anchoring over below braces. I'll take that one. Yeah, okay. Number Four foundation anchoring and cripple wall bracing. What does that mean? Well, the foundation anchoring is pretty straightforward. Most customers going to ask, Hey, is my house bolted? That's what they mean. Anchored is an anchored? Well, it's good to know this, if you're able to get under the house, but if it's a slab Foundation, and it's a newer building from like, let's say the 90s forward, or something like that, you may have a hard time determining that. Unless you happen to look inside the return plenum. You may see some bolts in the return plenum. Oh, if you haven't tried that, that's a good place to look. The return planner may show them and if the garage doesn't have drywall, you could probably check in there too. But most of them are going to have drywall around that time. So foundation anchoring. Yes, we want to be able to tell the customers is there any visible anchoring. If you do not see any, then just let them know, it's probably concealed in the walls, depending on what year the house is built. So that's, that's something you don't want to forget to mention, if you couldn't see it. But hey, if the house is built in the 80s, the houses built in the 70s house is built in the 60s, the houses built in the 50s the houses built in the 40s I think you're pretty safe to say there's gonna be a couple bolts there, right? But chances are there is a possibility there may not be in like late 30s or early 30s. And, and new and older than that. So 1920s For sure.

Bud Hayes: 41:35

So 1933 That was a long, long beach earthquake a change, right? The the codes for bolting and reinforced brick. So after 1933 All brick buildings had to have reinforcement bar and chimneys had to have reinforcement, rebar in them. And structures had to be bolted. But in 1933, my experiences, they just kind of put them wherever they felt like like every six to 15 feet. And then the codes have increased now they're supposed to be within six inches of both sides of the corner and every six feet and they're much more highly engineered.

John Laforme: 42:17

Yeah, back then, if Joe's construction was doing your house, they may put them every four feet, you know, Steve's construction might put them once every 16 feet. And but you know, there wasn't what wasn't enough oversight then to really put a finger on.

Bud Hayes: 42:33

So this is different, but I know some insurance companies, when clients are filling out their form, they'll have well insurance questionnaire that usually has to be done by a general contractor. So they one of the questions is, you know, how, how frequent are the spacing of the bolts? So right, the guy will actually get in there and evaluate it. Sure. But in in general, if it's bolted, it's bolted, right? Yeah, next part I think is a little bit more important for the earthquake safety.

John Laforme: 43:14

I want to mention one more thing on the foundation anchoring just this just happened with me about a week and a half ago. I went and expect this house down by playa. And in California down by Playa Del Rey. And this house had an excessive amount of moisture to the point where it was damaging the inner the inner race stem. Well, the so much, so much so much moisture, get into that section of foundation. It got to hold the rebar, rebar expanded and rusted and broke apart. There was like a 10 foot crack and horizontal crack, right running down this. I don't know what 18 inch stem wall. So and the reason why I mentioned that is because, of course when I was under there, I did notice that there was bolting. And so I confirmed there was bolting on the property. And the house is built in the 60s. So I had no question that there was going to be bolts, right? I just wanted to make sure I visibly visibly saw one or two somewhere. And I just looked in the events. And I saw I think I counted seven or eight. Oh, but I came back a few days later because they wanted me to come back and do a mold inspection on the same house. And then they go oh, by the way, the foundation guy said there's no bolts like really? Follow me grab the flashlight. I showed him he went wow. I said so that's a good point for everybody. If there's a foundation guy there and you say oh, there's no anchoring, you still want to take a look yourself. secondhand information can get you in trouble. So Be a little careful with that. I'd have been shocked if, if I was there and the guy said that right in front of me. I was like, What are you talking about? Man? Seven up right here. Yeah. So just be careful with that.

Bud Hayes: 45:12

So a lot of people don't really understand most people don't understand what a cripple wall is correct? Yeah. So there's diagrams that you can look online. But basically, you know, there's a, the perimeter foundation is concrete, let's say. And then there's is above the foundation is the floor framing. So there's anywhere from what can be 12 to 24 inches of short little walls that go from the foundation up to the floor frame. So that's what's called a cripple wall. The problem with earthquake on that is that when the whole house shifts, these are kind of like hinged walls. So that's where if, if they you know, they'll bend, sway, if you're looking at pictures of houses that earthquake damage, sometimes they're like, yeah, it's collapsed on one side and fell down to the ground. Right. And so cripple wall bracing is, is where they come in on older structure. And they add plywood for shear panels strength to keep those are rigid. And, and, of course, modern construction. That's, that's the code. Does he have to have plywood? For sure. Panel strength.

John Laforme: 46:36

Right. Right. Exactly. Yeah, Cripple wall bracing is kind of hard to explain on a podcast. So if you're in front of a computer, just like look it up cripple wall, CRI PP le than wall bracing. And just looking at some images of it, you'll get a better idea what we're talking about, it's really hard to explain unless you're really familiar with this stuff. So yeah, Cripple wall bracing is something you want to point out. A lot of older homes that have never been retrofitted. You know, they need it, you know, and you want to let your customer know that there's probably no anchoring anyway, love most cases is no anchoring along those lines, too.

Bud Hayes: 47:16

Well, sometimes on an older house, I like it, just for earthquake, but it just seems like it strengthens the whole structure. Sure. So for any minor settlement, it's going to hold up better to it, it's,

John Laforme: 47:29

yeah, it's definitely a worthwhile upgrade, I would recommend that to everybody. If you got cripple walls get embraced. If you don't have any clean, get your anchoring put in. It's just a no brainer. You know, if that house shakes enough, you're gonna have cracks everywhere, like bud mentioned, you can get you know, some settlement from it. And it's just going to stiffen up your, your, your structure,

Bud Hayes: 47:50

right. I'd like to also make a comment that very seldom to a see that they've in the city of LA they and they have what are called a la standards for retrofit in, which is basically pretty adopt has been adopted for most of the state. But if you've ever seen those, they're like four pages of blueprints. I mean, there's lots of diagrams and specifications. And there's special kinds of brackets that you have to have to add the anchor bolts to add the cripple walls, special way to put the shear panels onto that and his other little brackets and braces that you're supposed to add. So it's all stitched together?

John Laforme: 48:36

Yeah, no, there's a process to it. And it's it's engineered. Yeah. So when you're talking about engineering, there's a specific bolt that has to be a specific amount of inches away from the next one, and so forth. So that's, that's why, you know, when when you get a retrofit are out there, they're going to look at that a certain way. They're licensed contractors to do this, right. Yes. So they know how to approach this, how to measure it out how to figure out what goes where and why. That's not something a home inspector is necessarily going to know. So don't get mad at him if he doesn't know all those specs, because we don't do the we don't do the work.

Bud Hayes: 49:15

Now, sometimes we I will mention that. You know, it's been retrofitted, but it doesn't appear to be up to current standards. Right, let them know, you know, it's still an improvement, but it's not. Probably not to code, not the

John Laforme: 49:30

latest version of it.

Bud Hayes: 49:35

Yeah, so that yeah, that's a good point, because the latest version of the LA standards came out in 95. After the Northridge

John Laforme: 49:42

Yeah, disaster.

Bud Hayes: 49:43

Yeah. So well, this is where you just need to get an approved professional. They quite often the building inspectors don't crawl underneath the house to examine and check off that the guy did it crap. They

John Laforme: 49:59

call that address drive by? Yeah. All right, so we're still on the foundation basement and under floor area section of the Korea standards of practice. So now I want to mention wood separation from soil. What does that mean? And what is the big deal? And who do you call? Here's a good question for you. But make believe I'm not an inspector, I'm just gonna ask you a question. Who do I call to move my dirt?

Bud Hayes: 50:29

Well, I think it's, it's kind of a common sense thing, like how much and so forth. And that should come up in the termite inspection also has a section to damage in any wood, the direct contact, so that allows termites to enter soil in contact with their if it's wet, and it's going to transfer cause rotted wood. Right? It's usually just kind of reflection of poor workmanship done in the past.

John Laforme: 50:59

Yeah, I know, I, when they asked me who do they call for that? I'm like, that's a really good question. I think you can just send your kid under there with a pail and a little shovel. Maybe he can clean it up for you. Now, I'm just kidding.

Bud Hayes: 51:11

But, you know, it's hard to say. But you know, you know, you do it yourself. Sometimes it's very excessive, or sometimes you go, you know, they got the new trench for the new sewer line. And there's an a huge pile of dirt all over the

John Laforme: 51:28

which, which brings us to another problem there undermining the stability of the post appears.

Bud Hayes: 51:34

Yeah, quite often. Yes.

John Laforme: 51:36

I write that up all the time. Yeah, trenching present. And so yeah, a little tip for you guys, if you haven't come across this yet. It's when they when they trench out to replace that sewer lateral pipe underneath the house that connects to the city. Typically, they leave all the dirt on the side, and they don't put it back. And if you look closely, a lot of times you'll see the concrete pier that's holding up that four by four would support or four by six. It's exposed. And I'm gonna shake comes around that could lodge that loose and then boom, you got a little settlement in

Bud Hayes: 52:11

house. So all the empty beer cans left. Yeah, the

John Laforme: 52:15

beer cans. Yeah. It's never a good one. You find out your, your house is worked on on a Friday, when you see a bunch of modelos under the house and whatever. Some Budweiser bud cans. Right, right. But yeah. So back, okay, let's get off the beer subject. And so, that's about it for wood separation from soil. So it's not a good thing to have. And go a step further, real quick on that. That is your fencing around your property. If it's all wobbly and fallen over and it's made out of wood? Well, that's probably because you have with the sole contact, which is a no brainer. So as soon as you put a wood post in the dirt, it's it's doomed. It's time bomb, it's a time I'm just going to fail on you eventually. So that's something that happens on fencing all the time around houses, and people seem to get very concerned over that. And it's just well, you know, it's it's like building a set of stairs and letting them land in the grass. You know, it's the same thing. It's just it's not right, it's not built correctly, and it's not going to last. Okay, one last thing there. But yes, insulation, insulation and lack thereof. I like to call it insulation and lack thereof California. Do we really need insulation under our houses? Well, it depends on who you ask. If you ask an insulation company, I guarantee you they're gonna tell you yes.

Bud Hayes: 53:38

I think it's a building code for newer construction. Yes. New construction. Yes. So a lot of times when we're inspecting a house was built in the 50s and then had a master bedroom added in the 80s. In the back you go under there's insulation underneath and right construction and not another house. Other section. My understanding that floor insulation does not improve the energy efficiency that much. Or it may not be now in the attic. It's great. You get your money back very easily.

John Laforme: 54:11

Yes. addict for sure. But floor,

Bud Hayes: 54:14

I'm not so sure. But you can always tell when English was a second language and people installed insulation, because on the way it works on the fiberglass insulation has paper on one side, and that's supposed to be the vapor barrier. So you're supposed to put it up against the like the mic up against the floor, and then the fiberglass hangs down. But it looks better if you put it the other way. Yeah, it's cleaner, but then on all of it. It's all written. Caution. Do not leave this exposed. Because it's combustible material and fire.

John Laforme: 54:55

Install backwards. Yeah, see it all the time. Yeah. So I

Bud Hayes: 54:59

always take an extra picture of the caution sign when I do that.

John Laforme: 55:03

Yeah. So it's it's amazing how often I see that. Yeah, I'm sure you could say the same, you probably see it all the time.

Bud Hayes: 55:11

I do. And they're, again, when they have it, put in backwards. Now, if there's excess humidity underneath there, it's going to entrap that inside the fiberglass.

John Laforme: 55:21

Yep. It's just wrong.

Bud Hayes: 55:25

It is wrong. Now, another thing I'd like to say just with insulation is when you crawling underneath the house, and you start seeing the insulation dangling, and pieces falling down. I've come to learn that indicates that at times there's excess humidity underneath the house, there's all that waits it down, it doesn't fall down on its own, it has to get I say it's heavier and heavier and starts falling down. So I look at that as well. It's not hard to put it back up or look at it. But that's an indicator red flags. And okay, this gets too humid underneath three, pack two, and a double check the ventilation around the house and usually find problems with lack of events or restricted ventilation. Right, right.

John Laforme: 56:18

So back so my my opinion on the installation is, you know, if it's an older structure before it was required, it's probably not going to be there unless somebody just wanted it added at one point. Like bud said, something a new addition, when it was required, it's going to have it, most of the time I find a new addition it has it and then it's probably installed backwards. And it's and then I look at the rest of the original structure, and there's nothing there. So I just let my clients know, hey, there's no installation, you might want to upgrade that if you're, you know, energy efficiency, conscious conscious. Some people are really into that. And I really want to make sure everything's tightened up. So let me go over the what the inspector is not required to determine or, or, or make a note on. And that would be determined the size, spacing, location or adequacy of foundation bolting and bracing, components or reinforcing system. So let's, how would you interpret that, but

Bud Hayes: 57:28

there is a old geologist, Harvey used to work here. I think he retired a few years ago, but he was a character, but I loved his saying he used to say it's performing, but it's not conforming. Here we go. You know, here's, here's this. Here's a geologist. So the retaining wall as well, you know, it's not really build the code, you know, to codes, but

John Laforme: 57:55

it's performing, but it's not conforming? Yeah, I'm gonna try that this week.

Bud Hayes: 58:01

I always kind of like that, in this in the sense of you know, we're not engineers, where you can't go into a house and then go this older house, you know, it's good to up to a 6.5 earthquake, but if it's 6.6 unit, you know,

John Laforme: 58:18

yeah, don't get into that anybody that's benefit.

Bud Hayes: 58:21

If it's bolted, is it adequately bolted and adequately engineered?

John Laforme: 58:26

Yeah. Okay. Okay. Here's a good one to add on to that, okay, this, this happens on occasion, you'll get a realtor who really wants to quiz you on this stuff? And they'll keep asking you that same question over and over again. So is this structurally sound? I'm not a structural engineer? So I can't answer that two minutes later. So do you think the structure is okay? Once again, you got to learn how to deal with those kinds of questions, and you got to stick to your guns on that you got to just hey, look, I can't comment on that. It's outside my scope of knowledge. I don't know how to answer that correctly. And I want to give you bad information. And they'll just keep on asking you 510 minutes later, they'll come back on a different angle to ask you try to put you on the spot. And I just look at me shake my head.

Bud Hayes: 59:14

Just the California Association of Realtors. Different forms. Yeah, guidelines.

John Laforme: 59:20

I played one of those out and one of my last episodes.

Bud Hayes: 59:22

Oh, and so when they're asking you about the structure and, you know, structural integrity of this place, you know, he's referring back to that. Well, you're supposed to recommend to the client to have a structural engineer if there's any questions. Yeah. Sometimes I'll throw that back to them. And I go, Well, you know, technically you're supposed to have it done. You know, in my opinion, I, you know, everything seems to be performing and so forth. It's an older structure. Right now, I don't see any notable defects that would handle that and then the last one, not required by the inspectors determines the composition or energy rating of insulation materials. Right?

John Laforme: 1:00:10

So that translates to, we're not required to know if you have a wall insulation under your house, or if you have a attic insulation in your wall or you know, do you have how what's the R value on my insulation? Mister inspector? Well, I don't know, unless it says it. If it says r 13. I might see it and maybe mention it. But well, it says are 13 on the label. I'll look it up in the report. And I'll let you know what I find out. But you could say something like that. But just be careful with it. Don't tell him it's insulated properly, whatever you do, because you don't know if you don't know you don't know.

Bud Hayes: 1:00:51

Right? And this is where codes change over the years, you know, right? Like a new construction. I'd have to look it up. But it might be 16 inches of blown in insulation. Right, or, you know, with wood and whatever that our value is. So how it's done in the 80s is is just have some four inch fiberglass battens rolled in. That doesn't meet current standards.

John Laforme: 1:01:20

Right, right. And here's another point to a lot of a lot of people are going to ask, Oh, is that? Is that to code? Is that to code? Is this to code? They didn't read the inspection agreement at all, because we're not data report code. That's not what we're required to do. Am I wrong?

Bud Hayes: 1:01:40

No. That's codes are? That's that's a whole subject unto itself. Yeah, that's

John Laforme: 1:01:46

a whole subject in itself. So we're not we're not general home inspectors a generalist. We're not there to report code. We're there to report system defects. Now, if we see something that looks, that's not typically how you plumb a kitchen sink, right? If we see something like that, of course, we're going to let you know, we have general knowledge of all the systems, but we're not there to report code. If you want to know if it has if it's up to code. Well, who who installed it is their receipt? Or they don't go back to Uncle Bob, you know, who did the work? Yeah, is there a permit. So that's why I always recommend if you see an upgrade, let the client know there's an upgrade present. Whether it was something within a few years, I'll make a note of like that if it's a brand new upgrade, or within a few years old, pointed out, you know, you just check for permits.

Bud Hayes: 1:02:35

So anyway, so when you talk about codes, it gets very complicated very fast.

John Laforme: 1:02:40

Yes, it does. So just try to avoid that, guys, boys and girls. Yeah, it's not your job to do it. So don't try to play the hero. Because if just because you know, the code on one thing, they may start asking to code on everything else. You know, and that's, you know, what's the point don't even go there?

Bud Hayes: 1:02:59

Well, I do have a code book, but I keep it hidden in my hidden in my backpack, in the car, in the backseat

John Laforme: 1:03:06

under the spare tire. Alright, so So but that's gonna do it for this episode, foundation, basement and underflow areas of the Korea standards of practice. And one thing I forgot to mention earlier, when we started the podcast was, you know, you and I are both certified Korea inspectors. Right. Totally forgot to mention that. So let people know that so. But where'd the standards come from? They come from Korea. Oh, she was there first, or Korea was their first.

Bud Hayes: 1:03:39

Korea's the oldest in the nation. Okay. So I know that we started this first Ashi standards. I'd have to look at this about 40 years ago, right. Almost. Yeah.

John Laforme: 1:03:51

That was about 40 years. Last last heard correctly.

Bud Hayes: 1:03:54

80s, mid 80s. Right. before my time. Yeah. So

John Laforme: 1:03:59

in Korea is recognized by the court system in California as a standard.

Bud Hayes: 1:04:05

That's a lot of the laws. Yeah.

John Laforme: 1:04:08

Yeah, that's something I've our good old friend Greg pi, from, as mentioned many times, gotta give him a call. I gotta get him on the podcast. Oh, that would be very interesting. pin him down and talk to him for an hour.

Bud Hayes: 1:04:22

Oh, I might have to join you on that one, just to keep him in these chairs. And he's going to be speaking at our upcoming chapter meeting. Oh, yes. Yeah, well,

John Laforme: 1:04:35

then I'll make sure I'm there. Okay. All right, but thanks for coming and

Bud Hayes: 1:04:40

Bud's business name is well, he's inspection group.

John Laforme: 1:04:44

He's inspection group, but he's only one man. That's right. John here from home inspection of 30 banks but great talking to you. I'm glad we got through this one section. And we plan on doing all the sections of the credit standards practice they'll just be in different episodes because We just don't know how in depth we're going to get on each one. So this was episode eight of the podcast. And this is going to be what you want to call the

Bud Hayes: 1:05:16

session one, which we call the true standards,

John Laforme: 1:05:19

create standards part one. There you go. We're gonna call this create standards part one foundation, basement under floor areas. So once again, everybody thanks for listening. Don't forget, I do have a YouTube channel. And we actually recorded this whole podcast on video with three cameras. So we're gonna try to make a video out of this too. So hopefully, my editor can put it all together. And we'll get them both out there as soon as we can. Take care. Thank you