Do Not Skip The Sewer Camera Inspection If Your Buying A Home!

Episode 4:

Too sewer scope or not to sewer scope? That is the big question when buying a home. John Laforme and Robert Deyl both agree having your sewer lateral inspected is a must have inspection when buying a home, Heres why.

The unknown is a sewer lateral pipe which is buried under ground between your foundation and the city sewer connection. This pipe is the responsibility of the home owner (you), so if you buy a home and choose not to have the sewer camera inspection performed and it happens to be blocked, full of roots, collapsed etc, It is your (the Home owners) responsibility to repair or replace the pipe at your expense and these repairs can range from 2,000.00 to 25,000.00 depending on whats wrong with the pipe. Spending a few hundred dollars during your inspection contingency period to have the sewer camera inspection performed is a great investment. So do not skimp on the inspections skimp on the window treatments!

Here are some common unrealistic expectation during a home or sewer inspection:
1) Just because the sinks and tubs are draining does not mean you do not need the sewer camera inspection. This is common logic among realtors and buyers.

2) There is a shiny new ABS plastic clean-out in the front yard on a 1950's house, so doesn't this mean the sewer lateral has been replaced? Not necessarily, in most cases the only upgrade was the clean-out was installed so its very likely this is the only section of pipe thats new.
3) The sellers disclosed that the drain plumbing has been upgraded, this typically means the plumbing under the house has been upgraded Not the under ground sewer lateral unless specifically described on the invoice.

You can contact Robert Deyl Plumbing online

http://www.robertdeylplumbing.com/

Transcript

John Laforme: 0:00

Buying a home? Don't panic. Just listen to the rest of this podcast. Welcome to Home Inspection Authority Straight Talk podcast with me, John laforme. Are you a homebuyer, a realtor, or maybe a home inspector? If you are, then this podcast is definitely for you. So let's get right into some straight talk about home inspections. Alright, everybody, we're back. It's episode four. And today we are going to discuss sewer lines, sewer laterals, that pipe that carries all that nasty stuff from the house all the way to the street. And why this needs to be inspected. When you're buying a house, whether it's new, or old, doesn't matter. As a home inspector, I've been doing sewer line inspections purely out of demand from the clients. When my phone rings the first question is Oh hey, can you do a home inspection? I'm like, sure. Of course, that's what we do. And then right after that can you do a sewer inspection? I had to say well, no, but I can try to line somebody up for you. And that worked out well for a little while. And then it turned into a nightmare trying to manage someone else who had another business and they were just weren't giving it the the attention it needed. And it just went bad. So I decided to invest a lot of money into buying some gear. And I think it was a good choice. And the reason why I did that was because my customers are every day when they call me they're always asking me to do the sewer line. So why not do it as a general home inspector. Now, keep in mind, I'm only doing the inspections, I don't do repairs. So I'm not going to give you a cost evaluation of a issue I find if I find a broken pipe. Or if I find, you know, a bunch of cast iron that's just in really poor condition. Or if I find Orangeburg pipe, I'm not going to give you quotes to repair that stuff, I'm then going to recommend you call a qualified licensed plumber. So today, I have a special guest with me. And this is Robert Deyl from Robert Deyl plumbing.

Robert Deyl: 2:40

doing pretty good this morning, John yourself.

John Laforme: 2:44

Alright, so I just want to let you know you're my very first guest.

Robert Deyl: 2:47

Right on. Thanks. That's an honor to be here.

John Laforme: 2:50

So tell me a little about yourself, Robert.

Robert Deyl: 2:55

So I'm a licensed plumber. And I've got around 15 years experience in the plumbing and industry and about 12 years experience running sewer camera equipment and working on sewer lines, making sewer repairs, etc. So I've seen a lot of a lot of things in sewer lines, to know that it's definitely something that needs to be inspected when you're buying a home because there's I would have to say most properties out there have sewer problems. And you want to find out, you know, before you close on a property that the sewer line doesn't have too many serious problems. That could be expensive. It could be expensive costs and big bucks to fix. Yeah. So that's very, that's an important thing. Absolutely.

John Laforme: 3:41

Okay, so yeah, that's a good point you just brought up the unknown is a sewer camera is a sewer line. Yes, it's the unknown. And it can be very expensive. And that's why I wanted to bring you on today to to kind of throw out there what basic costs are so I'm going to you know, come up with some scenarios for you. We've been we've been on houses together before in the past so I know what you do you know what I do? So it should go really easy as far as you know, what kind of answering some questions I might have. So basically, the back to the importance of the sewer camera inspection, whether you have a plumber do it or your home inspector do it doesn't matter. You just need to get a camera in there to see the condition it is the only way to know if there's a problem. So let me clear the air on some old folk tales. And here's the one that still cracks me up to this day. When a realtor says oh, we're all the sinks and the toilets flushing are draining. Well yeah. Okay, so we don't need the sewer line camera inspection that do we know you still need the sewer camera inspection. The only way I'm going to detect or Roberts gonna be To detect if a line is already backed up, is if it's already backed up. You can't just go into a house and turn on a faucet, and then determine Oh, well, the sink didn't back up. So I guess we don't have a problem. That's not how this works. Okay, we need to clear the air on this. I'm trying to I'm trying to explain this in the simplest layman's terms as possible. That does not dictate whether or not you need a sewer camera inspection. So am I right, Robert?

Robert Deyl: 5:30

No, you're absolutely right. And also, if if the home was recently built or new, we get that sometimes Oh, this a new a new property or recently they remodeled the whole house? Do I still need a sewer inspection? And the answer to that is yes. Because there's we always see builder defects. And sometimes they'll, you know, completely demo house, build a new one, and then reconnect to an old sewer line that has serious issues.

John Laforme: 5:59

Yes. And on that, on that note, I've done several brand new houses, where construction debris was completely blocking the line. And everyone's like, Oh, how can that be? I'm like, Well, you mean, how can that be, because some knucklehead just dropped. Probably didn't have a cap over the probably didn't have a cap over the toilet flange while they were doing the drywall or something and dropped a bunch of drywall down there, and no one's gonna try to clean it out. Probably just all it'll flush out. Not really. So yeah, so I found a lot of issues with a brand new construction. And here's another another spoiler alert for everybody. This is one I get a lot. Oh, well, I don't think we need to do the sewer today. I'm like, Oh, why is that? Well, there's a brand new ABS plastic clean out out there. Fantastic. I'm glad you're very observant. And you notice that there's a brand new shiny cap sticking out of the ground. That does not mean the whole pipe is that material, right? That's a sewer access, which means it may only go down a few feet and then turn into cast iron, red clay, or you know, Orangeburg for all we know. So

Robert Deyl: 7:14

right, I see that as well to like a home from the 50s. With a newer ABS plastic sewer clean out that came, the material wasn't here till around the 70s. So when I see that, I know, they've probably had a sewer problem at some point, and had to install the clean out to get into the line and kind of try to clear things up or maintain things. So when I see that I know, I really got to be careful and see what's going on.

John Laforme: 7:41

Yeah, exactly. So there's always these little telltale signs of, you know, what we might expect, you know, during during these inspections, and we'll talk real quick about low flow toilets and cast iron pipe. Oh, yeah, that's a lovely combination, isn't it? Okay. So you get cast iron pipe onto your house, which means it's from what what year? Would you think? 40s 50s?

Robert Deyl: 8:07

Yeah, I feel like a lot of the homes, you know, in our area, San Fernando Valley from the 50s. Yeah. And it's all led in oakum cast iron pipe. And yeah, the old tradesman had to install it the hard way.

John Laforme: 8:20

Yeah, and, and those pipes, cast iron, it just corrodes from the inside out, it starts flaking on the inside. So and then hey, California came up with let's not waste water, which I think is a great idea. Let's not waste water. But when you take away the amount of gallons going down a toilet pushing toiletries down there, and it's getting caught up on a cast iron pipe, because it's all, you know, scaled up and it's not smooth anymore. So a drain pipe, if you look it up, a drain pipe is intended to be a smooth, round surface. Right? So with that in mind, you know, putting a low flow toilet in your house is a great thing. However, if you're running an old, antique functionally obsolete sewer line, it's not a good combination. So that's something that plumbers know. I'm assuming most home inspectors know that. I'm sure not all of us know that but I do know that and so those are things that keep in mind when I'm inspecting a house and then also doing a sewer line as well.

Robert Deyl: 9:30

So that's a that's a really good point to bring up. And one thing you know, that I look at in these homes is you know, the homes from 1950 with original waistlines underneath, and when the home was built, these casts iron and galvanized waistlines. They are only designed to last between 60 and 80 years. So here we are. 2021 71 years later. Yeah, it's their approach. In the end of their service lifespan, so people, they assume that the plumbing system just because the house is standing in good shape, they assume that the plumbing system is designed to last forever. And that's just not the case. So these cast iron lines have started to get rusty and deteriorate. And then people can have blockages and things can start happening.

John Laforme: 10:20

Exactly. That's a good point, Robert. So once again, when you're, when I'm inspecting a house, I'm actually going under your house. If you call out a plumber, just to do a sewer camera inspection, chances are he's not going into your house. My right?

Robert Deyl: 10:41

That's correct. Yeah, and in most cases, you know, just as far as a sewer inspection, we're going to be looking for an access either a sewer clean out on the side of the house, front of the house, or even a roof fan. But usually a sewer inspection specifically does not include going under the house and kind of checking out underneath, right, that kind of falls more under the general home inspectors job,

John Laforme: 11:05

right. So this is a common misunderstanding with customers of mine. Once again, setting expectations is the point of my podcast is to really let buyers know what this service entails. And time after time after time, it's always the same misunderstanding. And that is Oh, so you're going to check all my pipes, right? Know, if you just hired me to do the sewer, I'm just going to look for a clean out access around the perimeter of the house on the wall in the ground. Hopefully there's access there. If not, I may be able to go through the roof. But I'm not there to inspect all your plumbing. And I'm not there to I'm not there to put a camera through all your cleanout access unless you want to pay for additional clean out access accesses. Because all that takes time. And and once again, every time we put a camera into a line, we're risking damaging the camera, right or losing the camera as it can get stuck. And then you have to cut it off. And then you got to go spend $2,000 for a new camera. So if you're a homebuyer out there just understand that the sewer camera inspection is only intended to inspect the pipe that goes under the ground, from your foundation on the outside of your foundation out to the street. That is all it's for. Now, if you have a multifamily property, we have like an adu way in the back. There may be a clean out there too, that's going to connect to the main line, which is the houses main line, that's typically how that works. So depending on the clean out the location, is it accessible? Is it big enough? Does it have the rights sweeps on it all that comes into play. So the bottom line is, there's no guarantee that if you call a sewer camera inspect or out there, or a plumber, whoever you want, it doesn't mean they're going to get into your line. Sometimes they're just not accessible. And sometimes you need to have a sewer can't sewer access installed.

Robert Deyl: 13:08

Yet that's that can't be true, especially these these, these older homes, I would say from the 20s and 30s. You know, they never intended on someone coming in and running a sewer camera, you know, so they did not install the waistlines in a manner that's going to allow the camera to get down in the line. So that could be true where you would have to install a clean out just to gain access to perform an inspection. And then on top of that, they didn't even have to have clean outs back in those days. So you're kind of have to retrofit the system just to perform an inspection in some cases. Yeah, that could definitely be the case.

John Laforme: 13:47

Now what's your opinion of pulling toilets to do the sewer,

Robert Deyl: 13:51

I use it as a last resort. So when I come to the house, the first thing I'll do all I'll go inside the house actually and look how the bathrooms are laid out. And that'll give me an idea of how the plumbers ran the plumbing underneath the structure. And then I'll go on the exterior of the house and look for clean outs you know on the back wall sidewall and maybe the crawlspace and trans front of the house and I'll check there if I don't see anything there. Then I'm going to I'm going to be thinking I'm going to try to go down the roof then I'll try to go down a roof and for whatever reason maybe they remodeled and they put too many turns in the roof and the camera can't get down then the last thing is okay now we have to pull the toilet to run the camera. So that kind of changes things now we're we're starting to you know remove more than likely the sellers toilet right to kind of you know gain access. Now, it it is possible, but right away when you put the camera and you're going through a couple of tight turning 90s And it kind of can make it difficult to get the complete inspection done, not impossible. But definitely, it's not a guarantee you're going to get all the way out from there. So you may just use that as a tool just to get to the front yard to locate to where a clean out would have to be installed. So it may end up being more work after that, but it is, you know, an entry point, not the best, but it does provide some level of accessibility.

John Laforme: 15:25

Right, right. So and like you said, you know, now you're pulling a toilet. And keep in mind, the buyer doesn't own the house yet.

Robert Deyl: 15:33

Absolutely, I see that you have to really tread lightly with that, because it's the sellers home, and yet, we have to get their permission to do the work. And sometimes, once we mentioned, we're going to remove a toilet, they really can ruffle their feathers. And they may not want to allow you to do that. Or if we do it, they're real nervous thinking we're gonna mess up their home. So I've done it, but you just have to tread lightly and just make sure you do a really clean job putting down plastic. And, you know, Reese when you're done putting the toilet back real nicely in your wax, seal caulking and cleaning up and just making everyone feel comfortable. But it's, it can be a problem sometimes.

John Laforme: 16:12

And you're equipped to do all this because you're a plumber, exactly have a van full of gaskets in a van full of small bolts for new flanges. Maybe if you needed a new flange, you have all that so people look at me sometimes go, how come you won't pull the toilet because I'm not a plumber. Exactly. I don't have a van full of supplies to make this happen. So that's why I don't touch that. So unfortunately, it happens. And I always try to let my clients know in their relatives, hey, look, you just hired me to do a sewer inspection next week. Call the seller and have them look forward right now. And just pointed out if it's not there, don't do the service. Because you may need to clean out. So but I can let you know more when I get there. What you should probably do. So I can always give them advice when I'm there. The best way to approach it. Yeah,

Robert Deyl: 17:00

that's smart. Because maybe yeah, a lot of times the sellers will know if they maybe they've had fewer problems in the past and they know where their their access is they're clean out. So yeah, that's smart. They'll be ready for you. And you show up.

John Laforme: 17:12

Right, right. So let's talk a little bit about some scenarios. Let me let me bring up some scenarios that I commonly find and what my customers should expect to pay during some of these some of these repairs. So like just two days ago. I'm sorry. Yeah, two days ago, I did a sewer line over in LA down by marvista. And entered a brand new ABS clean out. Whoo. That was fun. I always get excited when I see those when I show up because I know it's gonna be not that hard to do, right? When I don't see a cleaner like oh, man, now I'm going to tell the customer that I have no access. So So anyway, I get into this pipe with my my real camera and push out about 6070 feet a lot, a lot of stuff stuck to my lens. I couldn't get a good view going out. But I cleaned it off on when I before I started pulling back in. And man, I found a huge hole in the bottom of the pipe. So to give you some details, so you can probably give me a proper quote for this. Sure. It's a clay pipe. It's only three feet underground. And it's under grass. It's not under concrete. Yeah. So

Robert Deyl: 18:39

I would say about$1,500 would be like a minimum. Okay, repair under the grass about three feet deep.

John Laforme: 18:45

Okay, there you go. So that's helpful. That's very helpful. I don't give prices to people, because if they don't call you, they may call someone else like Joe's plumbing, right? And he may say, Oh, it's $3,000. Absolutely. And then they're calling me and going, Hey, you just said it was 1500.

Robert Deyl: 19:03

Yeah, and I'll have to say keep in mind on I'm a small family business owner operator, versus, you know, these big plumbing companies you hear overhead a lot overhead, you hear him on the radio all day, you see their big massive trucks driving down the road, you're going to pay at least twice as much if not more, with these big companies because those reasons

John Laforme: 19:25

Yeah, got it. Okay. So now the same pipe, they just they just mentioned had a significant amount of roots in it, and there was enough roots in one section to cause a blockage. So this brings up another question on top of this question, which is this whole pipe was clay. I take it back the whole half the pipe was clay half was ABS plastic. So the clay part, of course is where the roots were. Right? I never see roots and ABS unless it just totally disconnected for some reason. But typically that's rare. I don't see that.

Robert Deyl: 20:01

Yeah, it's pretty rare. I would say occasionally I'll see if the guys didn't put glue on the joints where they actually didn't tighten down the bands well enough and the roots could sneak their way in. Yeah,

John Laforme: 20:11

exactly. So. So this, this line had a lot of roots in it. And it obviously needed to be cleared. Right? At the time I was there, the home was not occupied or partially occupied. And if, if I didn't use my 300 foot reel, I probably wouldn't have pushed through it. I use my smaller camera, it may not work. Yeah. So there's a benefit to using that. 300. Yeah, I know. I know that your go to. And that's also my go to now

Robert Deyl: 20:41

you'll gain more intel and won't work as hard to get there. Yes, exactly.

John Laforme: 20:45

So. So what do you think that line was about 60 feet? I'd say at least 30 feet of it were clay. So I know in the past, we've spoken about hydrojetting. A clay pipe there's risks involved? Yes. Can you give me more detail on that.

Robert Deyl: 21:02

So hydrogen is a great tool. And what it is, is with with high pressure water, we're able to cut routes out of out of clay sewer lines, usually. And what happens is that you have to think how did the roots get into the pipe to begin with, there could be a hole in the pipe, or the pipe could be badly cracked from possibly the 94 earthquake, or other Earth movement that we've had over time. So what happens is we go into the line with the hydro jetter. And we start introducing, you know, 3000 psi of water in coming through a spinning head to cut the roots. And we want to make sure we only we're only running the machine long enough to cut the roots, and then put the camera back in the line and make sure that the piping, you know isn't, you know, falling apart due to us kind of loosening up the roots and right adding so much high pressure water into these damaged areas. So you kind of have to go in surgically and just wash it up a little bit and go back in with the camera and check in on it. And just make sure. Make sure you're not making the problem worse. So in some cases all go in the pipe could be full with routes, and all all cut out, you know, 80 to 90% of the routes. And I'll leave just a little bit of routes there. And the client will say, Hey, why didn't you cut those out too. And I'll say, it probably would have caused more harm than good. We could have got to a point where we were beating on this pipe so much that in order to try to get that one little piece of root out now, you know there's a chance the pipe could collapse.

John Laforme: 22:39

Yeah, that's not good. I'd hate to be you. And that happens. Yeah,

Robert Deyl: 22:45

no, I try to always I try to always avoid those scenarios.

John Laforme: 22:49

Yeah, that's that's not a good one. So I hope everyone's understanding what we're getting at here. So there's a lot of unknowns with sewer laterals, and trying to inspect them and trying to clean them. This it's not a guarantee. And it's a it's a very, it's a very gray area. And I want everyone to know that it's not cut and dry. Oh, how come? You didn't get them at the end of my line? Well, why am I paying you will? Well, the purpose of the inspection once again, is to tell you the condition of the line. So if I was to push my camera and five feet and say, Oh, by the way, this thing's completely collapsed. Well, how come you couldn't get all the way out to the street because it's collapsed. So now you know the condition of the pipe, the pipe is not serviceable. It's not accessible, you have an immediate collapse. Now the rest of the pipe might be fine. All the rest of the pipe might be collapsed. You don't know. So unfortunately, yes, we are still going to require a payment because we asked anyone out there and tried to inspect your line. Now we're telling you, you need a plumber to come out here and do a spot repair and that collapsed area. And then when he's done fixing it, he can run his line all the way out. And then you'll get the rest of your inspection done. But understand the gray area here. It's we don't know what we're going to run into. And that's the purpose of the inspection. So don't take it out of context of what we're doing.

Robert Deyl: 24:13

Right? Absolutely. Yeah, I would say you know, a standard sewer inspection definitely goes a long way helping you know what's going on. Another thing I really want to get out there to you know, someone who's buying a home considering a sewer inspection is that the sewer line is the only utility for the house where the homeowner is responsible in most cases, all the way to the middle of the street, gas piping, it usually starts on the side of your house so you're not responsible. Water main which brings in the the incoming potable water usually starts near the curb and sidewalk and you're responsible for the meter up to the house. But the sewer line actually goes into the middle of the street, which in usually a very deep underground could be 810 1215 feet underground. Now, if the sewer line were to be broken in the middle of the street, now the homeowner is responsible for the excavation, traffic control, safety procedures, all sorts of things repaving the road. And it's the only utility where the homeowner will be responsible to get in the street and be required to do street wear,

John Laforme: 25:25

can you can you explain the traffic control Park.

Robert Deyl: 25:28

So let's say you live on, you know, a quiet street. So in a normal residential neighborhood on a quiet street, the, you know, the contractors, they can just set up some cones, and it's pretty light traffic. So there's not much traffic control. But if your your house was on a busy street, where there's much heavier traffic, now, in order to replace the sewer line, you have to hire usually a third party traffic controller to safely set up all the flashing lights, cones, etc. To divert the traffic around the sewer work, because you're responsible for the sewer line and city street. And this just makes the the job price go higher and higher when you're paying these, you know, the traffic controllers in order to get the job done?

John Laforme: 26:18

Yeah, cuz if you're doing the work, you have to you have to put their cost into your bid.

Robert Deyl: 26:22

Absolutely. And yeah, and they're and they're not, they're not cheap, you know, the send a couple guys out there with all this equipment and kind of monitor the traffic and keep things safe. So it there's there's a lot of things to consider. And I feel like because sewer lines are underground, nobody's thinking about it, or you don't see it's not right in front of you. So it's, it could easily be overlooked. But it could be a huge, costly mistake. Yeah, so

John Laforme: 26:50

a typical, um, you know, I know other plumbers, I know you, I know what I charge for sewer camera inspections, I think I get a pretty reasonable price. If I'm already there doing the home inspection. Typically it's 199 to 225 I'm charging for, you know, you might come out, you may charge 295 or 275 300, depending on the property because you know, from your experience, just like I know, this house is going to be problematic, right? It's not gonna be easy.

Robert Deyl: 27:19

Yes, sometimes they're, they're smooth and easy. 45 minutes. And other times, you know, we're working our butts off over an hour and a half on the roof and setting up ladders and in and out, in and out up and down the ladder locating the line. So you never know what you're going to get into snags before you start.

John Laforme: 27:34

Yeah, and we're risking our neck carrying gear up onto a roof. Not to mention, and if there's only one of us there, sometimes these are just two men job. So I know what's a two man job, I'll just tell my client look, I'm just going to refund your money. And I already paid and we're going to refund your sewer money. And I'm going to recommend you get a plumbing crew out here that has enough manpower to do this. Because this this is a very, very complex sewer situation you have here some houses adjust that way. And you never know until you show up. Right? Oh, you know what's gonna happen? So so back to some scenarios. Let's talk about good old Orangeburg pipe.

Robert Deyl: 28:14

Oh, yeah, so Orford sewer line. So that is the worst quality sewer piping I run into. And what Orangeburg is it's a tar paper type material, that they don't use it anymore. It's not approved. And what happens is over time, it the shape of the pipe is lost, and it turns up getting smashed and turns into more of an oval shape than around shape, right. And then it gets all these dimples inside the piping, and then the roots can easily get in and once the roots are in, the roots will just blow it to smithereens. And the problem with the orange burgers once it has roots in it, we cannot hydrojet the line to cut the roots out because the hydrojet are too powerful and it'll blow a hole through the piping. Oh yeah. tar paper,

John Laforme: 29:07

I refer to it as paper mache. Yes. Because that's to me, it was a paper mache with tar on it. Right? That, to me is the best way I can describe it to a customer. So getting back to one thing you just mentioned about the the it turns oval because it starts collapsing. And then the bottom of the pipe sometimes decides to start caving in and you get these humps right and the humps now restrict water flow. And they now restrict the toiletries from you know, running down the pipe to the street city connection like they're supposed to. So there's a lot of problems that are inherent when you have that kind of when you have that kind of pipe. I still find it now and again and sometimes it's hard to spot because sometimes it's in good shape,

Robert Deyl: 29:55

right? No sometimes it holds its shape. Yes and and other times that just kind of can fall apart and roots can get right into

John Laforme: 30:03

Yeah, so yeah, sometimes I'm liking I'm not sure I get to go back to my office and look at that on a high high high definition screen and see what that is. And sure enough I was right when I first thought oh, it looks like orange Bergen but right I like to confirm it once I've opened up that file

Robert Deyl: 30:18

and yes, sometimes you can see it a little better on the on the computer.

John Laforme: 30:22

Because the glare from the sun when you're out there in the field working it's it's, it can be a little challenging. By the way, did you buy that umbrella yet?

Robert Deyl: 30:31

I have a umbrella but but not that maybe not the one you probably recommended.

John Laforme: 30:36

That thing is great. That is a great umbrella, it takes two seconds to set it up. And it just takes all that heat off of you and the glare and you can just take your time. Right focus on what you're doing

Robert Deyl: 30:49

a difference when you can think without the sun beating on your neck.

John Laforme: 30:53

I know. So, cast iron, we talked about the orange Burg is what What year do you think most homes would have orange Berry? What what what range?

Robert Deyl: 31:07

I think around the 60s 60s and 70s, you'll you'll probably run into some Orangeburg. Yeah, and also you'll see a combination of it to where they would use Orangeburg would be the straight sections of piping and then they would use clay fittings for the turns for like a 45 degree. Clay wire 45. And then it could be a combination. Absolutely.

John Laforme: 31:29

I haven't seen that combination. Yeah, I haven't seen that. Typically, I just see straight runs.

Robert Deyl: 31:33

Oh, okay. Yeah, so they use it for the straight run there. And then you know, the turns in the beginning turns in the end, but you'll see if there's a turn in the middle, it'll be probably a foreign play fit and

John Laforme: 31:44

you get 30 feet of clay, we get 40 feet of Orangeburg and you looking at the orange burgers under the front lawn, but extends all the way out onto the sidewalk.

Robert Deyl: 31:58

Okay, or let's just make it a little simpler, let's just say it's, it's stopped right at the sidewalk, okay, on the on the on the homeowner side of the sidewalk right on his property line. And then, let's say we're in the lawn, there's about six feet deep. And let's say the pipe exits the front of the house, it's it's also in the lawn. And so we got 70 feet of pipe to replace, it's three feet deep redexes, the house six feet deep at the front property line, we'd probably be at about $8,500 for a job like that. Okay, and what we would do, we would do one hole where the pipe exits the front of the house, dig another hole right at the sidewalk there on the on the customer side right at the property line, and we would perform a pipe burst. So what a pipe burst is, we would anchor a large machine underground, most likely in the deep hole at the front property line. And then from the the shallow hole, we would we would we would run a cable through the pipe, the existing pipe and then on one end, we'd hook the cable up to the machine and on the other end, we'd hook a bursting head and behind the bursting head, we would connect 70 feet or excuse me, 75 feet of new polyethylene piping four inch in diameter, so it's the same diameter. But what we do is when the machine starts pulling the new line in place, first thing to come through is the bursting head. Bursting head is five inches in diameter, so it's one inch bigger. So the bursting head is going to completely obliterate the existing line, it's just going to crack it and move it out one inch, and then it's going to pull the brand new four inch polyethylene line right in place. So little by little, it starts pulling and tugging and the machine has 40 tons of pulling power. So just little by little, it's going to pull this new line in place and and break the old one. And after the after a little time passes in May about an hour and a half, two hours, it pulls from hole to hole. Once it's all the way in now you have a brand new 75 foot poly high density polyethylene sewer line, which is the highest quality material pipe we can put in the ground. And this high density polyethylene it's the same piping the gas company uses. I'm always seeing these these yellow coils on the back of their truck and they're installing it underground with a boring system. Very strong material. We actually had a job once where we were laying out 100 feet of the polyethylene in the customer's driveway. And his son you know was in a rush to leave so he came out in a big SUV and ran all the material over with an SUV ran it all over and we still installed it nothing happened to it as fine. So it just goes to show you can run it over with a truck and you know pull it underground disburse the machine it's the strongest material and once that pipe is in place, it's rated to last over 100 years. So that should last all of our Are our lifetimes but yeah, a job like that 75 feet long. It'd be about$8,500 With excavation and replacement of the piping with a 10 year warranty.

John Laforme: 35:09

So with the pipe burst, yes. Okay. Now it's safe to say that the only the only joints there are at one end and the other end, right?

Robert Deyl: 35:18

Exactly. The piping comes in 20 foot lengths, and we heat it, and we use it together. So there's fusion joints every 20 feet. And the piping base, the manufacturer says the fusion joints are stronger than the pipe itself. And you think how could that be? And it sounds kind of weird. But I've actually been on some Piper's where the ground is so hard. One time it actually pulled the pipe itself tore like ripped, but the fusion joints were all still intact. So I'm confident how strong these fusion joints are in now. So you can picture you know, approximately 70 or 75 feet of piping. With fusion joints. Now we just have to connect to it at the beginning where it exits the house. So we'll install an ABS clean out, we'll use Husky bands, which are the Heavy Duty has four clamps on it right to on the clean outside to on the polyethylene, clamp it together real strong. And then on the other side near the sidewalk, we'll put a husky band and then we'll transition to ABS or maybe a three foot piece. And then we'll put a heavy duty six by four transition coupling to connect to the six inch clay lateral, which is usually in that area. Right? Okay. So once all that's these heavy duty bands and polyethylene goes in, you should easily get 100 years if not more.

John Laforme: 36:45

Now what now what about what about roots getting into that

Robert Deyl: 36:50

I've never seen a tree root get into a polyethylene pipe haven't even seen yet. And I've seen it on abs, which is they look similar. The the they're both black and color the piping. But the polyethylene is for pulling underground ABS is most common you'd see like under a house. And the differences the ABS is designed to be glued into a fit in with ABS glue. And in like we were talking earlier, sometimes I'll see roots get into ABS where maybe the plumber didn't glue the pipe, right and they and then the roots are able to get in. Or in some rare cases ABS piping could even crack if the plumber put a lot of force on it and the 45 degree angle wasn't quite right. And he forced the joint together. And then over time, the pressure crack the fit in just a little bit and then roots could get in yet. So if it's installed correctly, we don't really see roots getting into abs. And I've never seen it get into the polyethylene just because the stuffs just like pretty indestructible.

John Laforme: 37:56

Yeah, either have i So when I'm pulling my camera through a pipe that's got it, maybe an epoxy liner or something like that. I typically see a stamping on it. Oh, yes. And that's how I can identify it. Yes, it stamped is like storage and numbers on it.

Robert Deyl: 38:10

So yeah, now that's, and that's the pipelining system. And that's that's the second method of trenchless. And that's where there's a little confusion, two people say trenchless. And they think there's one method of trenchless. But really, there's two. And the first method I was talking to you about was the pipe bursting method. And that's where we physically pull a new line in place. And that's the best system because you get a new high density Paul polyethylene pipe. The second method of trenchless sewer replacement is pipe relining. So that's where we're able to inject a sleeve they call it into an existing pipe that's impregnated with an epoxy resin. And then once the sleeve goes in, put a balloon inside of it, it inflates the hatch time to cure a couple hours of curing time. And then we pull the balloon out and you're left with a pipe that's been rehabilitated with a pipeline. And yes, you can see when you run the camera, you can see the stamp on the inside usually says how thick the material is it'll Yeah, three and a half millimeter or now the code is has to be four and a half millimeters thick. Really?

John Laforme: 39:22

Where before when these. When did that go into effect?

Robert Deyl: 39:25

The exact date I'd have to check. But I know that when the pipelining first came out the three and a half millimeter material was very popular, it was less expensive. But because it was so thin and they were still working on perfecting the glues and epoxies there I have seen cases where roots have broken through those pipelines over time. But now that they have the four and a half millimeter available and they've kind of perfected the the epoxy, that stuff once it goes in, when you had the thickness of four and a half millimeters it's it's solid it's it's ice sometimes can To like a PVC pipe like once it cures very thick and very heavy duty and rugged and I'm definitely a believer in that stuff.

John Laforme: 40:08

And here's a good question for you. I see certain cities, they use white PVC, drain sewer lateral pipe. Yeah, others use ABS plastic. Explain that difference to me, because it's to me, it's a little confusing. Why is there two different types of PVC pipe and used in residential applications? I don't quite follow that.

Robert Deyl: 40:31

Yeah, I guess it all depends what city you're in, and just what material they're allowing to have in their city.

John Laforme: 40:37

So what's the city deciding?

Robert Deyl: 40:39

Yeah, each each city could have its own rules and requirements, and, you know, different material they like to see. So you kind of just have to follow your local guidelines where you're doing the job.

John Laforme: 40:52

So it's a city code? Yes. Okay. So there's plumbing code, and there's the city code.

Robert Deyl: 40:58

Exactly. There's the uniform plumbing code, but then specific areas and cities might have, you know, little changes and variations to the specific material they want you to use, you know, in their, in their city.

John Laforme: 41:11

Got it. Okay. Now, how does one know, if white PVC pipe is found, if that city required it? Where can we look?

Robert Deyl: 41:23

Well, I guess, you know, you can check and see if there was a permit, you know, pulled on the job. And then also, you know, you can call your local building department and ask to speak to one of the inspectors and see if, if they can kind of answer some of these questions for your firm and firm, what materials are approved and what they require in their, in their city?

John Laforme: 41:45

Yeah, sometimes I see that. And that's exactly what I tell my customers, right, I see white PVC here, which is typically not found in this area, right. So this may be a code violation. But I'm a home inspector, I'm a generalist, I don't report code, right. But I do let them know, if I see something out of the ordinary. And I tell them to take take the ball and run with it and call a plumber or contact the city to a let's let's let's determine this and confirm it, whether it's okay or not. Because if that's the case, and it's not allowed, then I got to let them know, they need to find out because they had to replace that or shooter pipe person to get rid of it. Whatever it takes to get rid of it. Because if it fails, they're going to be pretty upset,

Robert Deyl: 42:28

right? Absolutely. Yeah. It's good to know what you got.

John Laforme: 42:32

But if you had, if you had, let's say, you're a plumber, you know, let's say you just built yourself a new house. And you had an option. Which one would you use ABS or the white PVC.

Robert Deyl: 42:45

You know what? They're actually very, both of them are very good products. I actually used to live in Florida a long time ago. And that's where I you know, started my first plumbing apprenticeship. And out there, they use all PVC. It's all use, you go into a building, you see it's all PVC, see the purple primers all over the fittings are all the same, you know, the 4590s comedies, but it's all PVC.

John Laforme: 43:14

So to be clear about the white

Robert Deyl: 43:16

PVC, exactly. It's why schedule 40 schedule for PVC, so it's a heavy duty, it's not the thinwall stuff or anything like that. And then when I started working plumbing in California, it's all ABS ABS black plastic, only use one glue, one black glue, no primer, and it the stuff looks very similar. I I've heard I've been primarily since of course, being a contractor here in California working with ABS only I really like to stuff I don't have anything bad to say about it. But I have heard that the PVC is a little bit higher and quality actually than abs. That's what I've heard too. Yeah. So I think it is a little bit better. But it's still ABS is primarily used here. And it is it is up to code. So we just kind of go with what's available here and what everyone's kind of doing here.

John Laforme: 44:08

So to clarify a little more. You mentioned that the white PVC schedule 40. So what is the rating on the black ABS?

Robert Deyl: 44:16

It's it's also a heavy duty schedule. 40 Okay, material. Yeah. Okay, so the both schedule 40 I'm pretty sure the PVC is a little bit heavier. If you were to hold up a 10 foot length of each one, the PVC is a little bit more heavy duty.

John Laforme: 44:31

Okay, so Robert, what I want to go over real quick is what's the percentage of sewer camera inspection to do a month that have issues like

Robert Deyl: 44:45

I would say 80% of the homes or sewer lines I inspect, have some sort of recommendation for repair, either. It can be as simple as just a little bit of hydrojetting maintenance. or there, there could be, you know, repairs that are needed? Absolutely. So, so most of them, I would say most sewer lines had problems. And, you know, recommend recommendations for repairs are usually made on most inspections.

John Laforme: 45:15

Right? So what I noticed is, oh, let me ask you this first. If you were trying to give advice to the your average homeowner, yes. As to how often they should check their line, have it inspected? Like if they're living in the house for a long time, like, every couple years, every five years?

Robert Deyl: 45:37

That's a good question. I would usually I ask people, you know, how long have you lived here? And I'll say, is there you know, is there a history of any, you know, blockages or sewer issues, and if they, you know, they've been here 10 years, 15 years and never had a problem, then you can kind of let it ride, I would say, but if if you knew there wasn't some underlying issues, like oh, yeah, we've had some blockages in the sewer, then it's kind of different, then you might want to, you know, have it inspected every year to to kind of, you know, see, you know, what's going on? Are the roots growing back really fast. And we need to have the line service cleaned out with a hydrojet or so then it changes a little bit, I would say,

John Laforme: 46:19

right, so I have a problem. Yeah. So I kind of, you know, when I show up to a house, I look at the front yard, is there tons of vegetation out there? Is there a huge tree like right in the middle on the front grass between the street and the house. And that's most likely right where the sewer laterals running anyway. Typically, when I see that scenario, unless it was just upgraded, there's gonna be some root intrusions, there's might be some cracks, there might be there might be some offsets. That's something we haven't discussed yet as offsets. So I want to let's get into that a little bit, too. Now. So explaining an offset to a customer is pretty cut and dry. I go like this. Here's one pipe. Here's the other it should fit like this. Right? Sometimes they go like this. Yeah, sometimes they go one's higher than the other. Sometimes they're, they're at an angle. Yeah. And that's where the roots come in. Right. But not they were never installed, right? Or in the beginning, they were never installed, right? Or they have shifted from our lovely earthquake activity we have here on occasion, right? No drainage in the yard will allow the dirt underneath those pipes to move. And they can drop a little bit. There's all kinds of scenarios that can cause an offset. So let me hear from you about offsets.

Robert Deyl: 47:39

So yeah, I would say there's, there's a lot of offset sewer lines out there, you know, the clay piping over time, it shifts underground. So now the joints aren't perfectly aligned anymore. And I would say, you know, minor offsets aren't really a huge problem. But I would say if it's like severely offset, like, really like a 50% difference, yeah, how they're lining up. That's pretty serious. But little minor offsets, like, you know, it moved like 10 or 15% percent, it's not the end of the world. And I just when I run the camera, and if when I see these offsets, and an inspection, if they're not clogged at the time of inspection, you know, that just kind of shows that it was draining before you put the camera. So I'll just mention that, you know, it had does have some imperfections that might have to be addressed one day, but right now it's kind of acceptable or in serviceable condition.

John Laforme: 48:36

Okay, yeah. And another thing that can be found during a sewer camera inspection is the pipe may not have the proper pitch, right, and maybe it may be level for like 1015 20 feet, so you know, water needs to drain to the lowest point and when you're installing a sewer line, what is it one inch per foot,

Robert Deyl: 48:56

a quarter and a quarter foot of slope, you can also you can also get away with an eighth of an inch per slope, in straight pipe, once once you get into fittings, they want you to hit the quarter inch for slope,

John Laforme: 49:11

okay, so that means your house when this when all your pipes under your bathrooms and kitchen and all everything connect, and they start going under the dirt under your foundation or through your foundation and then reach the outside of your house. That's going to be at one height. So if it's just charging out to the street, that pipe from the house all the way to the street needs to be on a pitch for it to drain properly. Because the drain pipe is meant to what? Drain your drain

Robert Deyl: 49:42

the waste out. Yeah, you want this constant quarter inch foot of slope so that all the water in the paper in the waste. It all kind of flows together and doesn't separate.

John Laforme: 49:54

Right? Right. You want it all to just get carried out and go bye bye down the city. That's it. Let's see. And where does it go from there?

Robert Deyl: 50:03

It'll eventually get to the city sewer treatment plant, and they'll, they'll process it and to do what they have to do with it.

John Laforme: 50:13

Okay. And let's see, I want to also ask you about a clay pipe. I hear a lot of customers panic. When I tell them they have clay pipe. And I don't quite understand why they're panicking, because just about every house I see has a certain amount of clay pipe from the city connection, probably to the sidewalk. Yes. So what's your input on that?

Robert Deyl: 50:40

And that's true, Don, for some reason, a lot of people think clay piping is bad. Just because it's, and usually it's older clay piping, but they still you can still go out now and buy brand new clay piping. But for some reason, clay has a weird stigma to it. But the truth is, the clay piping, it's rated to last over 300 years. Wow. And the problem we're seeing as though over time, like if you go to a sewer line from the 50s, we've had earthquakes, you know, since 1950, and or even older homes, we've had earthquakes over time. And when the Earth moves, these pipes are moving to underground. And then you get the joints shifting, maybe the clay pipe will crack because of the earth movement. And now the roots get and so it's really not the material itself is just things that have happened to it adverse

John Laforme: 51:32

conditions, adverse conditions over

Robert Deyl: 51:34

time. So in my opinion, I'd rather have a clay sewer line, as opposed to a cast iron sewer line. Because eventually the cast iron it's going to rust and corrode and get holes in it. The clay it's never gonna rust or corrode. Because it's clay.

John Laforme: 51:51

That's a good point. Now what about Excuse me, what about concrete pipe.

Robert Deyl: 52:00

So concrete piping, we're not really seeing that, you know, new installations anymore. i We see him when I see him. Now it's typically in laterals from the property line right next to the sidewalk, up to the city connection in the street. And they're usually older lines like 80 or 100 years old, they've probably been there. I would say if you inspect it looks like it's in its in fair condition that I'm okay with it. But you could you know, if it was kind of also it could get cracks to just like clay. And you know, it may need to be rehabilitated at some point or replaced. But overall, I'm it. A lot of them I'm seeing out there kind of looked to be in fair condition, and I haven't really seen substantial damage to them.

John Laforme: 52:48

I think that's I think that kind of wraps up the details about the importance of getting a sewer camera inspection, especially when you're buying someone else's house, whether it's new or old, you got to look at this pipe because you just can't take someone's word for it. And like we mentioned earlier in the podcast, don't get fooled by a ABS plastic clean out and the sticking out of the ground of your 1950s home. Chances are that's the only piece that is ABS plastic almost at a time. That's the case. If you're going into a real estate transaction, you know request disclosures as soon as possible. You know, ask the important questions are Hey, was there any work done to the sewer lateral underground between the home and the streets? If you just say was the plumbing upgraded to the cellar, they're only thinking of what's under the house if it's got a raised foundation. So it's all in the translation of what you're asking. And if you don't ask the right questions, you're not going to get the right answers. And that's a very common thing. Remember, once again, your general home inspector like myself is going to comment on the pipes under the house, in the visible pipes under the sinks in the house. And then a sewer inspection is going to comment about the pipes underground between the foundation of your house and the street or the alley, whichever way it goes. That's the difference of the two things. So honestly, as a home inspector that does sewer inspections, I think I have an upper hand in one sense and that is I've already been under the house before I do my sewer inspection. So like I mentioned earlier, and Robert confirmed he's not there to go under your house if he's just doing your sewer lateral. But because I was already there as the home inspector I've already gone under the house if it has a raised Foundation, and I've I've looked at the pipes I can see that there may be still some cast iron in service, I can see the direction of which, which way the pipes exiting the house? Is it to the front? Is it to the side, I can see all that. So that's the upper hand, I think I have, by doing your sewer inspection the same time I'm there, I can come up with maybe a little bit more information. Otherwise. So that's the importance of doing it. Because you can pay a couple$100 to $300 during your inspection, contingency period, or you can pay 20 to $25,000 In a worst case scenario to replace your whole line between your house Foundation and the city connection. That's the reality. Am I right?

Robert Deyl: 55:49

Absolutely. It's highly recommended anyone buying a home? Just go ahead and get the sewer inspection. Because if you if problems are discovered, you'll be you'll be happy you found them before you close the deal. would want to want to be stuck with a you know, 20 or$30,000. Bill?

John Laforme: 56:07

Yeah, and I'm pretty sure it's safe to say that the smallest repair to an underground sewer lateral is go at two grand.

Robert Deyl: 56:16

We could do a small spot repair for 1500 bucks in the grass. Right. But yeah, basically, it could easily go to

John Laforme: 56:22

that's you? Yeah, I mean, someone else? Oh, yeah. It's gonna be two grand 20. I'm just saying Absolutely. No, you're right in the ballpark? For sure. Yeah. So like, it's about $2,000 for any means. So you want to spend two or 300 During your inspection, contingency period. Maybe you get a credit for that $2,000 or more, maybe, maybe it's a$10,000 repair, maybe you get a credit. It's really smart to get all the facts before you complete your transaction. It's just really good advice. So I hope you follow it. I hope you found the podcast educational and informational and and once again, don't panic. If you're buying a home, just get all the facts. And just take the advice from your inspectors in your in your specialists like plumbers and roofers and HVAC guys. Just take all that information, put it all together, and then make your final decision, knowing what the costs are. So I want to thank Robert but we got to plug Robert a little bit here. Robert is a plumber. He's a licensed plumber, and your service areas are What

Robert Deyl: 57:28

a pretty large service area go you know, I'm out of Simi Valley, but I go and all throughout San Fernando Valley going to Los Angeles, Glendale, Pasadena. So I have 1000 oaks.

John Laforme: 57:42

Okay, that's pretty wide. Yeah. So it's like a 50 mile radius.

Robert Deyl: 57:45

It's it's a it's a pretty, pretty big radius. I would say yeah. Okay, good.

John Laforme: 57:50

And the type of plumbing that you stick to is typically what a lot

Robert Deyl: 57:54

of the stuff I'm doing is working for people when they're they're buying homes. So, you know, the problems John might find in the plumbing system when someone's purchasing a home, you know, maybe they need a new water heater, there's a leak, or they want to, you know, update some of their plumbing or a problem in the sewer line that John would have found in his inspection, then I could come in and make those repairs

John Laforme: 58:17

or anybody else that might have expected it to write.

Robert Deyl: 58:19

Exactly. And then just last gen does general plumbing you know, someone has a leak or a water heater, you know, stuff like that.

John Laforme: 58:27

So what stuff don't you do?

Robert Deyl: 58:29

I don't do new construction and remodeling. I just stick to kind of things that come up for people buying homes. And then just general plumbing service and repair stuff.

John Laforme: 58:41

See you but you're just a one man band like me.

Robert Deyl: 58:44

Exactly. Yeah, I'm keeping it simple for now. Keep it simple, which means staying in my lane.

John Laforme: 58:48

Yeah. That's important. We all need to stay in our lane. So yeah, so Roberts done some work. For me in the past, he's actually installed my water heater in my house did a fantastic job in he actually included the expansion tank. Yes. And the sediment trap and the safety pan in the seismic strapping real quick on water heaters as a home inspector every day. I find something wrong with water heaters. Just the lowest bidder put it in or the homeowner put it in no expansion tanks no safety measures taken on the on the on the tanks themselves when they're installed. Just hope you work and stuff like that. And and I have I've referred Robert to other people and they've been happy with the service as well. So there's a lot of there's a lot of plumbers out there. I'm sure you've seen 50 Plumbing trucks every day. You're on the freeway.

Robert Deyl: 59:46

Oh yeah, we're everywhere. Yeah.

John Laforme: 59:48

It's it's lovely trucks everywhere. So if you're looking for a quality plumber, give Robert a call

Robert Deyl: 59:54

at 818-606-4351

John Laforme: 59:59

Isn't it text number two, you

Robert Deyl: 1:00:00

can tell yes you can call or text. Or it's Robert Deyl plumbing@gmail.com.

John Laforme: 1:00:08

How do you spell it?

Robert Deyl: 1:00:09

Robert deyl plumbing@gmail.com.

John Laforme: 1:00:14

And what your website,

Robert Deyl: 1:00:16

Robertdeylplumbing.com

John Laforme: 1:00:18

Okay, that's simple. Alright, so once again, that's gonna wrap up Episode Four with my first live Person guest. I think it went pretty well.

Robert Deyl: 1:00:29

Yeah, no, thanks for having me, John its a Real pleasure.

John Laforme: 1:00:33

So, so with that in mind, I want to plug myself now. I always got to do that. Absolutely. So, once again, I'm John, CREIA certified inspector in Southern California Los Angeles area, I do cover probably about a 50 mile radius as well. I offer general home inspections. And you guessed it sewer camera inspections, mold inspections, mold testing, swimming pool inspections, as well. So if you're looking for any of that, please give me a call at 800-950-8184. The website is homeinspectionauthority.com. And you can catch me on social media Facebook Home Inspection authority, inspection authority, Inspector, tick tock. I just started I've only had one post but I'm working on it. And that's also authority inspector. So thanks for listening and we'll see you on the next one. Take care. Thank you, Robert.

Robert Deyl: 1:01:32

All right now you got it. Nice. Nice talking with John