HVAC Contractor Dean Gilford Answers FAQ For Home Owners: Part 1

Heating & Cooling Contractor and owner of Kilowatt HVAC Dean Gilford Answers FAQ For Home Owners: Part One

Dean offers 30 plus years of heating and cooling experience installing retro fit upgrades for existing homes. Dean and I answer frequently asked questions from our everyday customers to help current and future home owners better understand their heating and cooling systems.

Topics In This Episode:
Is my air filter for my breathing and indoor air quality?
How often should i change my air filter?
What is an Air filtration system and how does it work?
How to best use your thermostat?
Should i leave my HVAC system off when i leave home on hot days?
Do you have pets? Here are some tips you need to know!

Contact Dean Gilford Directly
https://www.kilowatthvac.com/

Transcript

John Laforme: 0:00

Buying a home. Don't panic. Just listen to the rest of this podcast Welcome to my podcast everybody. My name is John laforme. I'm a certified home inspector and the owner of home inspection authority. My podcast allows me to share my day to day home inspection experiences and knowledge to help homebuyers, homeowners, realtors and other home inspectors set realistic expectations with each other during the home buying process. So let's get right into it. Alright, studio audience is now clapping. Guess who's here? Today's guest is Dean Guilford from kilowatt air conditioning, heating and electric. Good morning. Good morning. Hey, man, you are the first HVAC contractor to come on the show here. I've asked many. You know, it's been so long since I've actually seen you in person prior to you coming out last last week to talk about doing my upgrade. I just like man, I don't know if he's gonna remember me if I call him because I seriously it had to be like five or six years ago. Since I've seen you at a meeting. Yeah, yeah. CREIA meeting. Yeah. So how you been?

Dean Gilford: 1:19

I've been good. Well, it's actually an honor. If, you know, one of the best home inspectors out there asked me for an estimate. So Oh, thank you.

John Laforme: 1:27

Well, hey, I refer you to everybody. Thank you. Okay. She didn't know it. Yeah. Your your business informations on my website. People. People constantly ask me Hey, you got to electrician? Yeah, I know a lot of them. Good luck getting them. You know, you get an H fat guy. Yeah, I know. A lot of them. Good luck getting them because they're just so busy. Yeah, you guys are in the amount of business you guys must turn away. It's gotta be crazy. I mean, how many? How many people on your crew?

Dean Gilford: 1:55

We have with the office and me and my wife. We're at 16 people. We're a small. That's not

John Laforme: 2:03

that small. Yeah. I mean, that's that's that's significant. Right? That's, that's a lot of staff.

Dean Gilford: 2:08

What's the job? Yeah, yeah, it's a job. We stay busy. We don't do new construction. So when you say everybody's so busy in the, you know, our downtime is typically in the winter, we stay busy. But it's not like summer for us. Right, right. And a lot of those new construction guys, right? They'll do any type of work, whatever they can. So then in the summer, when their client needs them or their customer, they're too busy to help them. So I try to focus on not having that that issue. I want to take care of our customers year round.

John Laforme: 2:36

Good. So Dean, how long have you been doing this?

Dean Gilford: 2:39

I've been a licensed contractor since 1990 9933

John Laforme: 2:44

years. Wow. So always ah back.

Dean Gilford: 2:47

No, I started off. Good question. I started off as a electrician in the trades. And in 91, I went to work with my uncle it Brody, Brody, heating and air. Okay. And bottom line, he said, Look, come and work with me finish your side jobs, which really wasn't my sole job that kept me busy. And I'll teach you air conditioning, and I'll teach you how to run a business the proper way. And I did that I did that for eight years with him. And then we sold the business to a consolidator in 98. He retired in 99. I quit and went back on my own again and then got my own HVAC license and nice 9990. So

John Laforme: 3:30

So you so you are a tradesman. You You are out there working on the trades, but you had the luxury of somebody teaching you how to run a business. Correct? That's a big one. Yeah, that's huge. That is huge. I've been blessed. Yeah, believe it or not, back in 8519 8586 ish. I was a framer. And I worked for a really good guy. The company was called Green Mountain construction. And he was just he kind of took me under his wing, taught me how to read blueprints and all this other stuff, I wound up going off on my own and just building additions on people's houses and stuff, you know, big custom decks and all this stuff. But dude, I had no idea how to run a business and I failed miserably. But I was really good at building Yeah, my sister had to jump in headshot to help me with my accounting but then it was too late. everything crashed in at around 89 So I was coming up to that so everything starts slowing down. And that was it that was it so I couldn't be I couldn't run a business back then. So I but I learned a lot from that. So that's that's good.

Dean Gilford: 4:38

Well all you out there who don't know John, if you can imagine a framers arm John has gun framers on

John Laforme: 4:50

swinging the I used to swing a 28 ounce Yeah, I was a pretty big

Dean Gilford: 4:53

we may have to arm wrestle after this.

John Laforme: 4:57

Your arm wrestling fan

Dean Gilford: 5:00

Joe can you get? You're in really good shape my friend?

John Laforme: 5:02

That is some some. There's some really good armwrestling things out there. Watch a lot of videos on that this guy from Canada LeBron. Uh huh. Yeah, he's, he's a big dude. Yeah, he's like a big heavyweight. That guy's got tree trunk for shoulder

Dean Gilford: 5:16

like the small guys. Yeah, that's impressive.

John Laforme: 5:19

So anyway, let's get back to this. Let's get back to this topic today. So today, I want to invited you on for a lot of reasons. One, you're an HDX expert, as far as I'm concerned. And the reason why I say that people is because when I run into jobs that his company has done, they've always dotted their i's and cross their T's. I'm like, and I tell the client that I make it a point at the end when I'm doing my overview. Like by the way, your your H vac was installed by kilowatt, and those guys do a fantastic job. And it looks awesome. So make sure they know that before I leave. And there's one other company I think you're friends with is Canoga. Yeah. You know, Bob, they do they do great work, too. Yeah, they do. You know, so it's all good. How long have you guys known each other a long time?

Dean Gilford: 6:04

I've known Bob. Since I got on the board with I hacky nine, the er 2000 2003.

John Laforme: 6:17

So for more than a month? Yeah.

Dean Gilford: 6:19

More than a month? Yeah. 20 years, he was a good guy. When I went back nice business for myself. He helped me out. Awesome.

John Laforme: 6:25

That's good. So the way by the way, by the way, your website's awesome. I really like your website. So today, I want to talk to you about you know, most common questions. Or I should say confusion with homebuyers and homeowners. Being a home inspector, I'm getting asked these questions every single day, almost like to have a script, it's always the same thing. So let's get I'll just get right into it with some questions for you and just try to answer them the best you can. So filters, filters, filters. So I'm just gonna make like I'm a homeowner right now. I didn't know how to filter. Sure. Okay, I didn't know it. A lot of my customers don't know they have filters. They may have been living in a condo their whole life or, or some kind of living environment where they didn't have to deal with that. So they're just not aware of it. There's nothing wrong with that. But we're here to educate people a little bit. So. Okay, now that I know I have an air filter. What's it for? Is it for my breathing? Is it for indoor air quality? What's the for?

Dean Gilford: 7:25

Technically a filter, like the little one inch filter in the ceiling? That's really for the equipment, right? Technically, it's for the equipment, it Yes, it'll it'll collect larger particulates. But it's not for any sort of indoor air quality, pet dander, allergens, it's not designed for that the ones you find at Home Depot, the three end product, they have a MERV rating 10 to 16. Basically, imagine putting a piece of cardboard where the air is going through, right, so the more dense that filter is, the more particulates it collects. The problem is most of the duct duct systems and designs aren't aren't able to accommodate that dense filter. So you're restricting airflow. Number one, problem airflow. So if you think of an air filter to protect the equipment, change it all the time. You know, there's no, one of your questions. I'm sure it's going to be how often should they be changed?

John Laforme: 8:26

I'm gonna get to that. Yeah. So yeah, so. So to reiterate, that's probably one of the biggest myths out there is, oh, it's for my errands. I need to I have allergies. So I need to do this. Well, the filters for the system. That's exactly what I tell everybody, it's for the system, it's to protect the system. So changing it often is required because as Dean just mentioned, it's airflow. So if that filters clogged, it's less air going through and now tell me what are the circumstances around that. So let's say I have a really dirty filter. What kind of symptoms is that going to cause my H vac system to do

Dean Gilford: 9:08

well one, because the filter, depending on the filter, if it's not that dense, all those little particulates will pull through the duct. And then we'll go to the coil evaporative coil, and then that coil will get dirty. And then again, it's trying to push air through a straw you can only push so much air right so the dirtier it gets the more clogged up. It gets right in

John Laforme: 9:35

the coil is located typically above the furnace area or if it's a vertical if it's horizontal, it's gonna be on the probably on the left or right side. So that's that's what he means by the by the coil, evaporator coil. So yeah, everything has to be cleaned in other words, correct. So just the other day, just a little side note. I was in a 19 1930s house had this huge walking crawlspace which I loved everybody that was loving that because no one had to crawl. So we're walking around and they're going, Yeah. And that's where they had the air filter in the basement and like, Come on, man, why are you putting the air filter in the basement for? I disagree with that stuff, because nowadays, you can put them in the house make them so easy to change, you just make it harder. Some people just make it harder on the homeowner and it's out of sight out of mind. Then I began to think about it down there. So I just got down there and I happened to pull it out. That thing was completely clogged with drywall dust. The same time I'm there, painters are still upstairs. Everything's got plastic everywhere. They get tape everywhere. So you know, they've been recently sanding. And actually some of the guys were sanding when I was there. All that stuff's getting trapped in the system. Because they were running the system while they were doing the sanding and painting and all the demolition work in there. And that I guarantee you that coil is going to have to be cleaned before that person moves in. Most likely, absolutely. Because that filter can only catch so much. And then it's going to work away around it. And it's gonna go right around it right onto that coil. So yeah, anybody out there doing a remodel, don't run your H vac system when there's any kind of construction, like demolition going on. You don't want to do that, because this is going to get trapped inside your system. How often should I change my filter? Oh,

Dean Gilford: 11:21

you know, that gets asked to us often. I would say every one to six months. Okay. And it all depends. You have in my house. I have dogs. And I have a return. One of them's down low to the ground. Good point. Yeah. I also have an air filtration systems. So but mine should be cleaned every couple of months. So in the wintertime, we use our heating less than in the summertime. Look, when in doubt change it. Right. You know, again, there's no if you change that every three months, you'd probably be really safe. Yeah, I think so. But I have I have a customer that she needs to change them every month. She has cats. Yep. And he probably has a low return. She has well return. You know, the furnace and coil is in the hall closet.

John Laforme: 12:16

I always point that out. Yeah, I always point that out to customers. Yeah, if i Hey, by the way, do you have a pets? And they're like, Yeah, we do. We have two cats and three dogs. I'm like, Okay, well, your return is right here on the floor. You need to change this thing probably once, once a month or every other month. Yeah. Because it's going to be completely clogged with dog here and cat here like wow, okay, thanks for telling me that ladies don't know this. No, they don't. Homeowners just don't know this. If you have pets in your return. That's that big grill where you put the filter. And in most cases, sometimes they're in the ceiling. But if they're on the floor, and you got pets, you want to stay on top of changing your filter. Hey, Dean, so you just mentioned you have an air filtration system. So tell me about that.

Dean Gilford: 12:54

You know, the the one I have in my house and then one that we install for a lot of our customers. It's it's a deep bank filtration system. But there's three components to it. The first component is a pre filter that's designed to catch the large particulates. The second filtration is a deep bank filter. So if you've ever seen a filter that's proximately, four inches deep, like a media filter, it's exactly it's a media filter. And then you have an electrostatic filter, which is like the old style electronic filter metal mesh metal. Yeah. So it like zaps and it it'll, it'll collect more of the dust. It also was designed to remove particulates, down 2.3 microns. And my understanding if I remember right, pen is one micron. So this is point three microns. I've allowed a big story about it, but my daughter had allergies. My me and my wife were at a dealer meeting and this guy from Tyler, Texas is selling this product to her and I told her this is all BS. And she goes, No, I really want it I really want it. So you know if you know anything about me, I'm a little bit cocky. And I said, well give me one of these things. And I'll put it in my house and I review it. Yeah. And he did. So they gave me one you know, it's very expensive. And I put it in the house, forgot about it. And then one afternoon I'm, I'm you know watching TV and the sun comes up in the east and that's my back windows. And I didn't have any little particulates floating. And when you have this air filtration we use a feature on the thermostat called Fan circulate though so the fan will circulate arbitrarily, depending on how you set it or what the thermostat you have every 1520 minutes so just circulating the air in the house. So once I saw that I realized hey, this thing really does work. And then my wife said it. It she said to her it got rid of my daughter's allergies. I don't know if it did or Data. I know what got rid of the little small particulates. But my daughter was on one of those little puffers when she was a young, young girl, and we still have the box. You never use Dean

John Laforme: 15:10

don't ever forget. Happy wife. Happy life. You got it, baby. All right, so now now she's happier. You're breathing better. There's no particulates in the morning. Now, one thing I want to ask you is this system you're talking about part of your existing H PACs. Yes. So where does it connect? Take those.

Dean Gilford: 15:27

So you were talking about the unit in the attic on the left or the right where the filter is? Same thing this goes in the attic?

John Laforme: 15:34

It goes in between the furnace box and the in the plenum in the attic. Yeah. And the Aiko. You got it? Okay.

Dean Gilford: 15:41

No, it goes between the coil, excuse me, between the furnace and the plenum where the return duct connects to Oh, got it? Yeah, yeah, it's before the coil.

John Laforme: 15:51

Got it. Okay, I understand now. I get it. Okay. Yeah, that that was that's good. Because I do you know, now you said it's expensive, what kind of 1000s like 5000 10,000.

Dean Gilford: 16:02

So most of the ones I would say 99% of the ones we install are installed. When we do a retrofit a new system, they run close to $3,000. Not too bad. The nice thing is you never have to purchase a filter again, what's cleaning, and they're warrantied for 10 years.

John Laforme: 16:21

Oh, so so so that the big filter that I described as a media filter, you don't have to change it, you clean it, oh, everything's clean, it won't be

Dean Gilford: 16:28

vacuum right and use, you can put it in the dishwasher. I don't recommend that. But vacuuming is the best. And if you're familiar, some of these deep bank filters that manufacturer sell some of these filters are 70 $80. And think about it if you change it, What's two times a year you spend 140 150 bucks. got

John Laforme: 16:49

it got it got it. So back to what what kind of conditions like what my H vac system be doing. If it would fit my my regular one inch filter was really dirty that I wanted to kind of just kind of give people an idea what a symptom might be is it just not getting cold cold enough as the system getting really noisy, anything like that you can offer

Dean Gilford: 17:10

so the noise is a big issue. So you'll, you'll you'll hear more air trying to struggle to get through the filter, right makes the machine the furnace to coil condenser, everything is working harder, you have the possibility of the coil freezing up. The coil is what works with the compressor outside, right. So if that gets plugged or you don't get enough air across it, it literally will freeze up like a block of ice. So you need a lot of air to pull across that. When you use that air filtration that I was talking about. You need more return. It's more dense,

John Laforme: 17:48

you're gonna add more returns, you

Dean Gilford: 17:50

add more you make them bigger. You have multiple depending on the size of the equipment.

John Laforme: 17:55

Yeah, you know, the biggest problem I see with like a townhome, I'm sure you run into this a lot to like it's always hot upstairs, it's always cold, or it's always cold upstairs. It's always hot, and always depends where the thermostats located. And like a three level Townhome. I just don't think it's possible to get that right. Unless you had a system on each floor. Yeah, it's never going to be right. It's never going to be right. So if you got if you got a townhome and you're experiencing this, I don't think there's going to be a direct fix for the whole thing. It just ain't gonna happen. That's just what you're buying.

Dean Gilford: 18:27

You can make it better. I mean, there's zoning, there's to speed variable speed equate, yeah, even something as simple as a thermostat with little wireless sensors. And they all communicate to each other. So you so you can set each level. If you wanted 70 upstairs and you wanted 75 downstairs? Well, I can tell you the downstairs is going to be 65 When the upstairs is 70. So that's the downside to doing that. You may meet with the zoning. There's the sense yeah, yeah, zoning is a whole a whole different level. But, you know, most most most homeowners don't do zoning and townhomes. Yeah, you know, they've already built it. So trying to get into the ductwork is difficult it can be done, typically cost prohibited. Well, I

John Laforme: 19:16

just had, I just did an inspection on a brand new townhome the other day and it had three floors over the walkin floor actually had a living area which I was surprised. So you walk in the front and there was a bedroom here and then there was a bathroom hallway and then stairs going up and then it was your main floor, kitchen living area and a half bath and then you go up to the third floor, all the rest of the bedrooms. And up on the i We start at the top of the building work my way down. So I'm checking temperatures upstairs, my heat tab it was really cold out as rain and so I had just ran the heat. And then it was about 98 It was a heat pump system. It was about 98 up there and by the time I get down to them It'll floor had dropped about four to five degrees. And then by the time I get downstairs, it was only like 72. Yeah, I said, I said, I'm not going to call this out as being a defective system or anything. But I'm letting you know, you get a lot of space to cover here. And it may be the length of the duct trying to get that down here because the system was way up in the attic was way up there. So there's just no perfect fix for it. I just don't think there is

Dean Gilford: 20:27

it's always an issue. Yeah, I was always an issue.

John Laforme: 20:30

Okay, so. Okay, here's, here's another good question, too, because I find this a lot. How many filters? Should a single split system have?

Dean Gilford: 20:44

Technically, you should have, you know, one filter, unless you have multiple returns, right? So if you had two returns one in the hallway and one in the master bedroom, the primary, right, then you would have two filters. But depending again, on the size of the home, the size of the equipment, but typically, one filter per system, unless it's a larger system. You could have two three, you could have, you know, one in every room. Yeah, most people don't.

John Laforme: 21:11

Right, right. Yeah. Some homes have that. Yeah, I don't some people overdo it and put his own in every bedroom.

Dean Gilford: 21:18

Doesn't work. Right. That's a nightmare for us. Inspectors. Yeah, but it doesn't work. Right. Yeah.

John Laforme: 21:22

So okay, great. A lot of times I find multiple filters, like within a very shorter span ones here. Two feet away is another media filter. And then right here is the the reusable

Dean Gilford: 21:35

filter. Yeah. It's crazy. One

John Laforme: 21:37

system. One return. So yeah,

Dean Gilford: 21:40

he said it's in the attic, and the homeowner doesn't know. So they changed the one in the hallway.

John Laforme: 21:45

I have no idea. There's one up there. That's three inches thick with debris. Yep. And then wonder why the shit don't work. Yep. Okay, so. Okay, so, HVAC, heating, ventilation, air conditioning, can explain the ventilation part.

Dean Gilford: 22:06

While the ventilation we can go deep into but for instance, the ventilation on a on a central system could be just the fan itself. You know, those systems are designed to have a fan where you if you turn the thermostat fan on, the fan will just circulate. Yep. Until you excuse me, it'll run until you shut it off. If you have, if you have a you know, a higher end thermostat, you can program fan circulation, or it'll depending on the thermostat, it could run 20 minutes out of the hour arbitrarily.

John Laforme: 22:39

Alright. And the fan running the fan does not mean you're running your air conditioner or your heater you just running the fan Correct. Basically the blower

Dean Gilford: 22:46

Yeah, and it can work with that. So you could program your, you know, your heating and cooling, and then have it on a fan circulate. You could have it on fan on. So the fan will continually run even after you maintain the temperature in the house, or the heating or the cooling.

John Laforme: 23:02

A lot of times I walk into a home to do an inspection. And I noticed a something blowing around. Okay, so if somebody turned something on before I got here, but I always walk right up to it and look at it. Yep. All they did was they turn the fan on. Yeah. And it's usually the realtor that first showed up that's doing this. And I'm like, Hey, did you turn this on? Yeah, I wanted to turn the heat on. Okay. Well, all you did was turn the fan on. Oh, okay. So I go to turn the heat on. Nothing works. Yeah.

Dean Gilford: 23:29

So I find a lot of times because I'll do some home inspections. You know, we've had a couple guys like you that'll refer me and or, or realtors and, you know will go into the house and especially in the summer will walk in and go it's awfully cold in here. Well, I know they came in the morning, they turn that thing on because there's something wrong. There's something wrong.

John Laforme: 23:51

So let's talk a little more about thermostats. Because a lot of homeowners don't understand how they operate their thermostats, it's really not complicated. I think what makes it complicated is the new brands that are coming out. Some of the brands that are coming out like I cannot stand eco bees. I just think there's too many moving parts there. You got to do too much to get to the desired location. Nest to me is the best one. It's so simple to use. But I I'm I'm kind of old school. I like the manual. I like the ones that the manual levers, you know, stuff, the more basic simple ones with the digital display. Those to me, they're flawless, but the new technical ones, they're a little tricky. And so as far as thermostat is, here's a common question. If it's really really hot out in this California weather in the summer, let's say it's 105 outside, and I'm not home all day. Should I just leave my system off? No. Why not?

Dean Gilford: 24:51

Because by the time you get home, the envelope of that house is extremely hot and trying to cool With the ceiling, the walls, it's going to take a long time, you're much better off maintaining a temperature it can be, it can be a higher temperature. And let's call it 85 degrees. And then if you want 75 degrees, it's 10 degrees. Whereas if you come home and it's 90 in the house, it's going to be much more difficult to pull it off. Yeah, I, I keep my house quite cool. My wife has a home office, I have dogs. She's in and out of the house. So we maintain a more comfortable temperature. And everybody's different. Yeah, with temperatures. But no, I don't think it's a good idea to shut it off. Unless you have a brand new house. And, you know, you have isolation in the walls. And you know, you don't have that you don't

John Laforme: 25:46

have a 30 year old system. Yeah. In an old dinosaur. Yeah. I've been in many people's homes where they have these old, old furnaces. They're just ancient. And they're connected to these old old eight cool AC systems. And I'm like, Yeah, you know, I just, you know, it was working fine yesterday when we turned it on, like, Well, okay, well, yeah, but when did you turn it on yesterday? Did you wait till this afternoon, before I got here to turn it on. I mean, that's why it's so hot in here. And because the system is so old, it's not going to catch up till probably midnight. And now you're running. Now you're using all kinds of energy, because it's talking about the energy, the energy consumption with that. So like Dean said, it's not a good idea to turn your system off completely. You want to leave, set it a temp, I set mine at 78. If it's hot, so that way there if no one's home, it's not getting crazy hot, like into the 80s and 90s, it's just gonna get as high as 78. So when I come home, my sweet spot is 74. So I'm just going to it's I'm only trying to knock it down just a little bit when I get home. So I'm not straining it, it's not going to run all night trying to do that. So it's, it's really good information right here to not do that. And if you get home and you turn your AC down to 60, it's not going to get any cooler any faster. That is another big myth that a lot of people think of. So

Dean Gilford: 27:05

as my wife does that, and she knows, I'll come home, she'll put it to 60 degrees. I want a clicker I said, you know, it doesn't work.

John Laforme: 27:12

That way, it doesn't work. That way, it doesn't work that way I have

Dean Gilford: 27:15

I have a variable speed system in my house, right. So what it'll do is run at lower speeds when you're close to your desired temperature. So that'll save a lot of energy. So I don't feel as bad if I'm running it at a lower temperature. The big the big problem I find is summertime because I get these calls. It worked fine yesterday, and today, it's not working well today, it's 105 degrees. I know the questions to ask, Oh, you just got home. Yeah, I just got home, it's five o'clock. You know, it's 90 degrees in the house, they didn't have it on all day, they turn it on? Well, it can own the temperature inside, you know, can only be a certain degrees less than the temperature that it is, right. So the air that is going to come out to the air that it is inside, you know, there's a rule of thumb with right with that.

John Laforme: 28:06

Like H factor has many, many layers of, you know, different different things that has to have to work right. Would you agree with that? Yes. Yeah, there's just many layers to stuff so don't ya, like the airflow is number one. So if you take an all this hot, hot, hot air and trying to throw it into a cooling mode, it's it's not going to work? Right? And you might get icing from that. Can you get icing from that? But you

Dean Gilford: 28:31

can if you have restriction? Yeah, you know, it's an absorption system. We're absorbing the heat. And then the machine outside. If it's dirty, if it's sitting in the sun, all these things you know, together from the filter to the airflow. I'll go on and on.

John Laforme: 28:50

You need that you need the perfect store. Did you dog does your dog pee on your air conditioning unit outside over time? There's a corroded away you know, don't let your don't let your past pee all over your outdoor unit. Not a good idea. You like it? Oh yeah, they'll be calling you to come replace it. Dean loves it by no means Dean says let the dog lift his leg anytime you want.

Dean Gilford: 29:09

I'll tell you a big issue is the gardener. The gardener that machines on the side of the house and on the back of the house and he uses his blower my guy does. And he blows the dirt right into that condenser and you can't see it right you can't see it. But you know you're creating you're creating a problem. That's why the maintenance is that's a whole nother rabbit hole other rabbit hole gardeners got it.

John Laforme: 29:34

I'm not gonna go there right now.