Water Supply Plumbing Types and Correct Installation Tips With Robert Deyl Plumbing

In this episode 27 I am joined by Robert Deyl to cover water supply plumbing types and correct Installation tips. You may remember Robert from episode 4 back in 2021. If not check it out here is the link for when you are done listening to this episode 27.

Podcast Episode 4 Link:
https://www.homeinspectionauthority.com/podcast/

What type of copper do you have in your home or in the home you are about to buy?
This question reminds me of the Matrix movie with actor Keanu Reeves, Should i choose Red (Type M) or Blue Pipe (Type L)?
If given a choice Robert and I would recommend the blue (Pill) Pipe (Type L) lol. Why you ask? well the blue (Type L) is a thicker pipe and most commonly used for that reason. However it is more expensive just like anything else in life that is worth buying.

(Type  M) The red pipe is not as popular as it is a much thinner pipe that is known to fail quicker if not installed correctly (As most of the time is not).

The importance of your water pressure regulator discussed in detail. Keep your water pressure setting below (75 PSI). You will thank us later.

Is your Lawn irrigation pipe regulated? Probably not! Have a plumber install a regulator to keep your pipes and components from leaking. No Regulator can also affect the sprinkler head water discharge.

You can contact Robert Deyl Plumbing online:
http://www.robertdeylplumbing.com/

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John Laforme
Certified CREIA Inspector Member #0155263
Home Inspection Authority LLC

Former President of CREIA Mid Valley Chapter
Former Vice President of CREIA Mid Valley Chapter 

Transcript

John Laforme: 0:00

Buying a home. Don't panic. Just listen to the rest of this podcast Alright everybody, welcome back to another episode of Home Inspection authority's Straight Talk podcast with me, John laforme. I'm a Creia certified home inspector from Los Angeles, California. And the topics we discuss on this podcast are about buying homes, selling homes, inspecting homes. So if you're a home inspector, home buyer, real estate professional, this podcast is definitely for you. So let's get into some straight talk about home inspections. All right, everybody, we're back again. And this time, we have a repeat customer. We have Robert Dell here. Robert Dell was part of Episode Four Way back in September of 21. It's great to be back, John, it seems like forever ago. We're here on the last one. And as you can see, I redesigned the the podcast studio looks great in here. I remember last time you were here was a little awkward and uncomfortable. And I had the wrong I had the wrong mic for you. Actually.

Robert Deyl: 1:21

That's the real real nice setup you got now Yeah, so

John Laforme: 1:25

things are much more comfortable now. And welcome back. Thank you. So you got a busy schedule.

Robert Deyl: 1:31

Um, got got a couple of things going on. Standard staying busy, for sure. Always.

John Laforme: 1:36

You're always busy. Every time I try to refer you a job. It's you got to juggle things around. I noticed. Yeah, it's

Robert Deyl: 1:41

sometimes it's hard to keep up with, I feel like Plumbing is definitely in demand. And if you do a good job that it's just gonna keep going.

John Laforme: 1:49

Right. And by the way, everybody, this is what Robert looks like without a hat on. This is my first time seeing him without a hat. So he does actually have here. So today, I want to I want to talk about water supply pipe. Okay. Water supply pipe comes in many different types. Yeah. And people always have questions. Well, what's the difference between this one? What's the difference between that when I'm talking about my customers? Right? I tell them you know, you get you get copper pipe a great Yay. Okay, awesome. You know, that's what I want to tell them. But then when I go, ooh, not so great. It's type M, right? You know, what's the difference? Well, the thickness, so I gotta explain stuff like that. Or maybe I tell them, they have packs, and they're gonna go on their own. I don't know a lot about that, why they use plastic pipe in my house. Right? So I think a lot of my customers think plastic means cheap. Right? They associate, they kind of associate plastic being cheap. Right? I understand that. I mean, as a consumer, I could see that if I didn't know anything about plumbing. And you told me Well, there's copper, or there's PVC, which is plastic, I probably would have said give me the copper. Right? That's just me. So let's get into that a little bit. What would you say to a customer when when they gave you that funny look, when you told them hey, you know what you got you get packs, or copper or whatever.

Robert Deyl: 3:12

I would say that, you know, the Copper has gotten so expensive that, you know, pecs came out as a less expensive alternative. And it's, you know, it's it's approved, it's approved material, it's approved by the UPC, which is the uniform plumbing code, which is the standard, right. And it's gotten more and more popular because it's less expensive to you know, build houses with it and do remodeling. And, you know, it's driving the cost down on projects and faster installation times brings the labor down as well. So it's it's gotten, you know, very popular. It has, you know, its its ups and downs. You know, just like copper, copper also has its ups and downs and things that can harm it will say yeah, we're gonna get into that in a bit. Yeah, yeah. So really nothing's you know, 100% like there's there's ups and downs to both sides. But overall, in my opinion, yeah, it is. It is a good material and it's definitely much better to have, you know, new pex piping than something like old galvanized would be, you know, a lot worse. Yeah, yeah, that's true. And, you know, just so all you homebuyers out there, especially if you're looking at brand new construction. You know, chances are it's going to have pecs. I see it a lot. I see it in brand new brand new construction. I see it in remodels. Honestly, I don't see

John Laforme: 4:39

I don't see it leaking. Like when I see pex I don't find leaks. I don't think I've found a Pex leak yet. Right? Yeah, it's it's, it's rare. I would I would say

Robert Deyl: 4:52

occasionally, you could find like a pinhole leak of a builder like drove a nail through it or something like that. Right? But for The most part yeah, it's pretty durable material.

John Laforme: 5:03

Yeah, sure. The biggest problem I see with pecs is the guy who installed it. Right? sloppy.

Robert Deyl: 5:10

Right. That's, that's one thing I've noticed a lot is if I go work under a house, you know, that was built in the 50s. And it has, you know, original plumbing. All the pipes are perfectly straight and level and plumb. And it looks like someone took the time and they did a really good job. And this is, you know, in the 50s, when we didn't have cordless drills and cordless saws and the material they're working with was a lot heavier. That's a good point. And things were done properly. And now here we are with all this plastic pipe and fancy power tools. And now the workmanship has just gone downhill. Yeah, the slap and stuff in the late corners. Lazy generation. Yes.

John Laforme: 5:55

People have gotten lazier. I'll be honest, I'm getting older. I'm getting a little lazy too. But you know, these young guys, like, you know, Robert just said just all the power tools we got. I mean, there's so many cool tools out there, right? I mean, wow. I mean, I see some stuff on YouTube. When I watch YouTube stuff. And like, Wow, man even know that existed. That is some awesome shit, you know? So I was like, wow, okay, but let's, let's, uh, well, we get some good specimens on the desk here today, we get all kinds of stuff to talk about. So I'm going to start off with the most common thing, and that would be the copper. Yes. So once you grab that M copper right there. Okay, yeah, this is a type M copper M as in Mary. Yep. And how we identify that is, it'll say type M on it, but also has a red stripe on it. So the red stripe is an indicator that it's m, which is the thinnest material. So the M gives a, you know, a rating on the thickness of the inside wall of the copper. Right? And this is the thinnest, least expensive version. Right? Let me see that. So, so home inspectors, if you're not familiar with how to identify this, as Robert just said, the red stripe, so whenever I'm under a house or in an attic, wherever I can see copper, I'm always looking for this indicator, whether it's red or blue, you want to grab the Oh yeah, type L. So we get type L here to

Robert Deyl: 7:30

type L much thicker type wall here. And you can just feel the weight right away. It's a lot heavier than that. Yeah, type M. But yeah, there's the blue stripe that goes with the type L.

John Laforme: 7:42

Right. Topper. Exactly. We see that one there. So if see, you might you might be able to see this. I'll put this in front of the camera might be hard to see from there. But I'll I'll do a tighter shot of that later. But anyway, so these are the most common types of copper. We're going to find. I have seen type K.

Robert Deyl: 8:12

Oh really? In like a residential? Yeah. Okay,

John Laforme: 8:15

I scratched my head going. Was that say Okay, is that a que

Robert Deyl: 8:18

and yet type? Type K has the green lettering on it. That's a medical grade. Yeah, it's gonna cost you a lot of green to get it. Yeah, this version.

John Laforme: 8:28

Wait a minute. I think those dollar signs on it. Yeah. Yeah, that's a very thick pipe.

Robert Deyl: 8:34

Right. Usually, I can't remember seeing it myself even in a residential setting yet but yeah, that's the the thickest version.

John Laforme: 8:42

I saw it once. So the guy who bought that house was standing on his wallet when he ordered his his piping. Yeah, obviously he had a lot of money to spend because that's, that's going to be expensive. Do you? Do you happen to know the price per foot on this stuff?

Robert Deyl: 8:55

I know right now the the type L is probably about$5.50 a foot okay, which is pretty expensive. You know, 10 foot stick about $55 Could even be a hair more the type em I would I would think it's probably around you know, 35 or$40 for a 10 foot stick. Okay. And it used to be I mean with the inflation we have now and supply chain issues it probably like a year and a half ago the the type L was like 35 bucks for a 10th and the M was probably 20 bucks for 10 prices that's gone way up recently.

John Laforme: 9:36

Yeah. You know, I I have a neighbor a few doors down and they just remodeled their whole place and one day I'm standing outside the garage there and hit her there contractor sees me and he starts talking to me. Pretty sure the guy was drunk. Yeah. I'm pretty sure he was drunk. Look, I better hit a few before started talking to me. At the end of the day, so yeah, he's probably had a few beers by now. So he had a really bad broken English and I was having a hard time on the stand, but he's like inviting me into look. So he like, hey, come check out what I'm doing. He wanted to show me his work. Yeah. And overall, the interior, the remodel look nice. But then I saw some type Emmeline on the floor. I see. You didn't. I was like, yeah, she won't change them. Did they know you're using type them? He didn't know he had a hard time understand what I was trying to say his his English wasn't great, but it was pretty funny. And stuff. It's like sitting there, right? Yeah.

Robert Deyl: 10:35

I'm always going for the type L on the hot and cold water piping. The situations where I do use the type M the thinner one would be a drain line on a water heater, the Relief Line drain because it's not under pressure unless the thing you know discharging which is pretty rare. It's just in a drainage application. Right? Randomly,

John Laforme: 10:58

right? So people who don't know out there. This is pressurized pipe. So with pressurized pipe coming in from the street can be anywhere from what 140 to 160, maybe 200 sometimes, right? Yeah, I

Robert Deyl: 11:11

think maybe the most psi has like 175 psi around there. pounds per square inch.

John Laforme: 11:16

Yep. That's that's I would say

Robert Deyl: 11:18

most common probably be like 125. Probably from the street.

John Laforme: 11:22

Yeah. So because of that, because there's so much pressure coming from the street, we have to use what's called a water pressure regulator. Yes. And that's right here. And this guy is pretty heavy. See how long you can hold it here. It's like a workout. The shoulder workout for the front delt. Yeah. So anyway, this is a water regulator. And as a home inspector, what I like to do when I show up at a property, one of the first things I check is water pressure. Yes, very important. And the reason I do that is because it it just lets me know, first of all, hey, well, what is the reading? First of all? What's the reading? Is it? Is it above 75. And my rule of thumb is if it is above 75, I make a note there's regulator needs to be checked. Because it's rated, the range is 25 to 75 on these labels, right? So the old, the old, set, what's the word I'm looking for? The old standard is, Oh, it's 80 psi, everybody always says 80. I understand it's a little bit higher than 75. But you got to ask yourself, well, who told you it's 80? Would you get that information from? So what we all get in the habit of doing is just listening to what the other guy said, what our buddy said, our old boss said, Well, I try to look into stuff a little bit when I can. And it got me looking at these labels a lot. Because everyone's saying this. Everyone's saying this guy says this, this plumber says that. So at the end of the day, the manufacturer is most likely going to know what their product should be rated for. Right. So that's why I look at the label on here. And that label clearly states 20, the range 25 to 75. It shows you the max psi that can come into this valve too, which is like 300 on this one, right? So that I like to start knowing exactly what the pressure is when I'm inspecting a house. So if I see it way over 100 Or even if even if it's a 90 or higher, then I'm going to be really looking closely on the inside of the house for evidence of running toilets. Faucets leaking or dripping potential plumbing leaks already already happening. Like maybe inside a wall. I know it's I can't see inside of a wall. But you know, you got to pay close attention when you're looking in cabinets and for staining. And I've seen I've seen bad regulators. I'm talking 160 to 200. I've seen pressure out houses on all the hose bibs, right. So I know the entire house had way too high of pressure. And I called I called the listing I said you need to get a plumber here today. As you may have a major major pipe break here that can happen at any moment. And there was there was evidence of leaking all over the house to water pressure TPR pouring water. It was a mess. The house had staining everywhere, there's probably leaks inside the wall and stuff like that. What's your experience with that?

Robert Deyl: 14:35

So yeah, just to kind of touch bases a little deeper on on the regulator. So yeah, like we said before, a lot of times the water you know, coming from from the city is 125 psi. And then what what happens is the water from the city will go through the regulator and then when it comes out the other side you It's supposed to be, you know, under 75 psi was what the tag says the highest rating on here.

John Laforme: 15:06

So it reduces it down, it really

Robert Deyl: 15:08

reduces the pressure down. The reason is all the plumbing fixtures inside your home, were only designed to handle less than 80 psi. So all your faucets, shower valve, toilet fill valve, washer, machine, dishwasher, everything in the house, it has inexpensive plastic parts and rubber gaskets, they can handle high pressure over 80 psi. Or if the pressure goes over at the problems that start to happen, you get runny toilets, drippy faucets, there could be an old supply of water supply line under a sink with rust on it, it could be at a greater risk to you know, explode them have water damage, also puts extra wear and tear on the piping, you can get strange sounds and noises. So when you have high pressure going into the home, it's like having high blood pressure on your body where you would get weird side effects and things like that symptoms. Yeah, yeah. So it's it's very important to have a working regulator protect, you know, the plumbing and the plumbing fixtures in your home.

John Laforme: 16:14

I've also seen I've also seen on some houses where the pressure relief valve at the watermain is dripping.

Robert Deyl: 16:23

Yeah, so that's that's an indicator and a lot of cases are for it to be code after the regulator, there's supposed to be a relief valve where if the pressure went over 150 psi would start dripping. And that would be an indicator that the regulator has failed. So yeah, that's

John Laforme: 16:40

let's discuss the reality of that most people don't put those valves in they put hose bibs in.

Robert Deyl: 16:46

Yeah, a lot of that. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And sometimes you don't see them at all, if someone kind of reconstructed the piping at the front of the house and didn't really know that's

John Laforme: 16:55

something I write up pretty regularly, at least valve on Overleaf itself? No, no relief valve in sight, or I've actually caught it where it's before the regular. I see where they did it backwards. Yeah. So. So that's the reality of what I find. Yeah, so

Robert Deyl: 17:11

regulators, you know, very, very important thing. And it's it's a very common problem that come up in home inspection reports. I would say they usually only last between five and seven years before they you know, have to be changed out and you have to get a new one. Because the parts inside of it do wear out over time with the high pressure from the city.

John Laforme: 17:32

You mean something? You mean, there's something that was made by man that wears out? Everybody watching and listening? Everything has an end date? Exactly. I mean, maybe that pecs doesn't we don't know that yet. But maybe the pecs pipe doesn't but this stuff here? Definitely does. And can you get into detail on the adjustment on that?

Robert Deyl: 17:54

Yes. So when when when you install this, what you want to do is you want to hook up a water pressure test gauge downstream of the meter, and, or the regulator, excuse me. And you want to turn on the test gauge. Usually when these are fresh out of the box, they'll show around 50 psi is what it's down, I like to crank them up a little more. So the customer is not complaining about low water pressure. So I always try to set him around 65 psi around 6567 psi is the sweet spot. So how you do that is you have your test gauge on this side. And then there's a set screw here, you you loosen the set screw here, and then the bolt on the top, you tighten it clockwise. So by tightening it, you increase the pressure. So tighten it down brings the pressure up, but you kind of go slowly and gradually and watch your gauge as you're doing it. Now one thing that's very important to know is you only want to really adjust these when they're being installed. New haha so you I see that a lot in home inspection reports, not from John's but I've seen other reports

John Laforme: 19:09

where John's make a note of that not from the

Robert Deyl: 19:12

the regulator's obviously like 10 years old or older and the inspectors on his notes is recommending that the regulator be adjusted. And that's not really a proper recommendation. Because we cannot, if you go back and you try to adjust pressure on a really old regulator, chances are you're just going to break out and make things worse. It's not the parts on the inside of that point from sitting in place longterm are frozen. And if you try to adjust it, you're just going to make things worse. So really the adjusting is on the first installation, you set it and forget it. And then if you're taking a reading many years down the road and it's showing over 75 psi, it means the regulator has gone bad and you have to replace it.

John Laforme: 19:52

Alright, you just brought up a really good point, a really good home inspector point. So I want to I want to get into that a little bit. Now. Let me explain why. What Robert just explained about another home inspector saying it needs to be adjusted. Okay, that is something he should not have wrote in his report. And I'll tell you why. First of all, how does he know if the if the valve has failed or not? He doesn't know that. So he should not be saying that it just needs adjustment. Because guess what if he says it only needs adjustment, and then the plumber comes out and tries to adjust it, and it doesn't work? Oh, it's failed, right? Yes, he's gonna, you're at that home inspector is probably gonna get a phone call to pay for that.

Robert Deyl: 20:34

And then also, it kind of confused as, you know, the realtor and the buyer. They think it just needs a simple adjustment. And then I come along and say, Oh, no, it needs replacement. And it kind of takes their breath away. They weren't expecting that,

John Laforme: 20:47

right. So guys, don't say that no more just say water regulator needs further evaluation. And then I always take a picture of the pressure gauge when I'm testing the pressure with my gauge. So I just put that in my report to show where it's at when I was there. And then if it like I said to me, if it's above 75, I call it out. I don't wait till 80 or 90 to call it out. I call it out if it's anywhere above 75. Only because that's what it says, Yeah, that's exactly what the tag says, Yeah, that's what it says use the word. Yeah, you're not gonna see that. So really, it's really fine print, but I'll take a picture of it. And I'll put it in the video version of this podcast. So they can see that. So that's the best way to report it, guys, if you're reporting this stuff, as a home inspector, anything above 75 Just call it out or don't, if you haven't already, just take a look at these tags. It's a little habit I have now I always look at these tags, because on much bigger houses, it might be different. These valves come in different sizes. So this one here is basically an average size regulator for standard size.

Robert Deyl: 21:52

This is the one inch six model 600 Wilkins 600, a very, very common regulator, because in a lot of cases, you know, normal size home, three or two, and that's a one inch in pipe. Exactly, it'd be a one inch pipe coming from the meter. So though a lot of times you'll have a one inch regulator, and then it'll go into the house after that point.

John Laforme: 22:11

Yeah, I'm glad we cleared that up. Because there is a lot of confusing information about regulators out there, right? It depends on who you ask, is what what answer you're going to get. And I'm telling you, if I put five different people in a room, I'm gonna get probably four different answers. Right. So I'm glad we covered that. Thank you for that. Thanks for clearing that up, as in that little point you made about another home inspector, because otherwise, I probably wouldn't have thought of mentioning that.

Robert Deyl: 22:36

Right? And, yeah, that's always a weird conversation when they're expecting an adjustment. And it really should be replaced.

John Laforme: 22:44

So you adjust them when you put them in, like take away from this as you adjust them when you put them in, or you set it and forget to set it and forget it. And you said the sweetspot was about 67,

Robert Deyl: 22:53

six, around 6567 psi is what I aim for right around there. But I don't know, here's another thing. So you can set it as high as 75 psi. But I don't recommend it. I've seen situations where we you know, we try to max these things out get 75 psi. And my opinion is that when you do that you kind of push this thing to its limit. And they were out faster. And I've I've talked to a good friend of mines, you know, a plumber or 20 years experience. And I brought that up with him too. I said, hey, when we crank these things down to get max pressure out of them, you think they were out quicker? And he says yes. So I you know, between my experience and his two, we we always set them around 6567 psi. And I think it just gives a little leeway in the capacity of the unit and makes it last longer. Right.

John Laforme: 23:45

Okay, now I'm going to I'm going to talk to you as a homeowner for a second. Robert, my water pressure my shower sucks. What did you do to my system when you put that new regulator in? Oh, well, ma'am, you also hang on? Yes. I'll be you now. Well, ma'am. So basically, the showerheads that are sold nowadays, they have these restrictors in them. Yes. And I actually had Robert drill out mine in my own shower a couple of years ago. And because once again, it's the pressure, your water pressure could be good. It could be set properly at your regulator. But all these water conversation, water conservation fixtures that come out nowadays here in California, they're a bit ridiculous, and there's like, there's no water pressure at my shower. Technically, there is what good water pressure at your shower. It's the showerhead restricting the flow. So you can do things to do that. If it really bothers you. So be my customers has the water pressure. What that means is what's it like coming out of the shower? Right? That's the only thing that means when a customer says that they never They're not concerned about what's coming in from the street because they don't know that part. They only want to know what's going to hit them on the head when they get in the shower. Is there going to be a lot of I want high water pressure. I want this, I understand. But a common misconception is, it's, you know, well, I mean, the other yeah,

Robert Deyl: 25:16

I've gotten into with a lot of customers about, you know, the water pressure coming out of their shower. And in how this will come up is they'll, their regulator, their house will be broken. So they're getting like over 100 pounds of pressure going in the house. And then I'll bring it up to him, like, hey, we need to put a regulator on bringing it back down to like 65 psi, and they're just like fighting me tooth and nail. They're like, Oh, no, I want my shower. And he's to be water coming out quick and a lot of pressure. But in a lot of those cases, I've ended up putting the regulator on and then I'll take the customer of the shower and turn it on and they don't even notice the difference. They say, Oh, I don't even notice. Okay, so they were really just fighting me for nothing. I'm sure you can notice a subtle difference Yeah, but yeah, in reality these when when these homes are built, they're designed to work under 80 pounds of pressure you know so the fact that regular went out and now you're getting more pressure you got used to it it's kind of too bad you need to keep it in a safe zone about 65 pounds protect everything Yep,

John Laforme: 26:22

I'm telling you you got us you got to really get this done on your house if you haven't already had Yeah, go out just go to Home Depot and if you already own a home or you already living in a home just go out and buy a little cheap gauge I sell them at Home Depot

Robert Deyl: 26:36

they sell in the Home Depot Amazon for like 10 bucks probably

John Laforme: 26:39

Yeah, find a pipe that's coming right out I might my best the best recommendation I'll give us as to what hose bib to do it on is one that's coming directly out of the wall of the house. Exactly. That'd be the best spot don't if you find a find one that's away from the house that you use to water the grass that may be on street pressure. It's

Robert Deyl: 26:58

if it's coming out of the ground, it could be from the irrigation side. Yeah, it's could be unregulated, but it's coming out of like the sidewall of the house or the back wall the house, it's probably connected to the all the water piping under the house which should be regulated. So that'd be a good place to to check from right. And yeah, test gauge very, it just threads right onto the hose spigot and you turn it on, and it'll tell you how many psi you have. And you just want to be under under 80 or you know under 75 is preferred.

John Laforme: 27:27

And the reason why you really want to make sure your water pressure is under control is because I have seen major leaks in major water damage problems because of this. You do not want that. That is an expensive, huge inconvenience for you. You may have to move furniture, you may have to let mold remediators come in and open up all your walls to get to the source of the leak. I've seen some I've seen some disasters because the regulator's trust me you want to make sure you stay on top of this.

Robert Deyl: 28:01

Yeah, good. Very good advice.

John Laforme: 28:02

Yeah. So all right. Okay, Robert. So let's, let's get into the type M type L copper a little bit more. Because you know, the type M tends to pit because it's a thinner pipe. So pitting means it's going to turn into a pinhole leak, correct? Yes, go ahead and explain that a bit more.

Robert Deyl: 28:23

So you have eventually, you know, because the type M with the with the red stripe is a thinner copper, you're at a greater risk to eventually get a pinhole leak, just on the inside of the pipe, the calcium deposits and things over time kind of can eat away at the pipe. And then more of definitely more of a serious issue is the improper strapping we find you know, under under people as houses yet which put the copper the copper in direct contact with galvanized steel. So what we mean by that is in this we see this kind of all the time. This is a galvanized steel plumber's tape. Yep. And a lot of times we'll see it you know, hanging under the house and someone put a galvanized strap on it. And if you didn't know any better, you would think what's the problem with that? The problem is, these are two dissimilar metals that do not like each other and as soon as you put them in contact with each other a process called electrolysis takes over and the the two dissimilar metals will start to eat at each other and causes you know advanced corrosion you know to start in the corrosion will will start to break down the copper pipe. It'll start to change color it'll it'll darken even turn black

John Laforme: 29:46

out. You know what, I got a picture of that. Yeah, let's take a look at that.

Robert Deyl: 29:53

Yeah, we'll see you know, real heavy corrosion and blackening of the pipe and then leaks will start to develop

John Laforme: 30:00

Okay, so this is what we're talking about. This is what a discolored pipe looks like. And this is a house that you and I were both under, yes, about a month and maybe a month and a half ago. It's like, Wow, is that black steel gas pipe? Nope.

Robert Deyl: 30:16

Right? No, that's, that's a copper pipe that used to be a copper color. And then when the electrolysis takes over turns black like that, it gets very thin and brittle, and you're at a much greater risk for a leak. It's almost, I can kind of think of it as the piping now has cancer, you know, just kind of spreads throughout the system. And it's going to fail for sure.

John Laforme: 30:38

Yep. And let's see, add another shot here. So, right here, this they actually have a decent strap on this one. That's the plastic.

Robert Deyl: 30:52

That's a plastic version, which is which is good. It's not gonna cause any corrosion. Right thing is it's

John Laforme: 30:57

not it's no metal. And so it's not dissimilar metal issue, but look out black. That pipe is

Robert Deyl: 31:01

right. So so when I see it like that, I know, somewhere in the system, it's got to be in contact with galvanized. And

John Laforme: 31:09

another thing, that constant that I've noticed that causes that even Well, I can't confirm this, but I would assume even the older homes with the with the metal conduit for electrical? Or were they on the ground? It was what no no work towards laying on the pipe. Oh, just in contact. Yeah, yeah. So see that so that there could be another cause?

Robert Deyl: 31:36

That's a big one electrical? Yeah, the electrical metal electrical conduit laying on the on the copper.

John Laforme: 31:41

Okay, let me see, I gotta see right here.

Robert Deyl: 31:44

And then also the, you're right on the copper hangers. That's right, unprotected pipe hangers. So that's another big thing we see is there, they make these steel hangers, which are designed to be hammered into the wood under the house. And then the piping is rested in the hangar like this to support it underneath. Now, they fought about this by incorporating this, this black protection. So there's rubber, black rubber. Yeah. So there is a barrier between, you know, the dissimilar metals, but over time rubbing, just friction from the water running through the pipe, it'll break down this black barrier. And then now you're going to have two dissimilar metals touching each other. So the best way to do it is this is called plumbers felt. So you put a piece of felt over the copper pipe first. And then you install the hanger so that you have an added layer of protection. And when you have it set like that under the house, that's going to basically Outlast everyone's lifetime.

John Laforme: 32:59

So that's good. That's probably your signature. So if I go under a house and I see that I know Robert was there.

Robert Deyl: 33:03

Yeah, this is definitely the best way to do it for long term to protect the copper.

John Laforme: 33:08

Nice. And that's the difference people between hiring a professional and a hack, right? Yeah, a hack is just gonna throw that stuff and minimal supports. I mean, I can't I can't I can honestly say I don't typically see great support on drain or water supply pipe on remodels. There's like minimal supports right? And on a copper pipe according to code is there a specific distance between each hanger every six feet every unchopped on supply on supply? Yeah on water yeah on copper every six feet and on drain pipe it's what is it four feet it's 34 feet yeah so there is a you know a standard that all these plumbers should be following and most don't yeah let's just stuff I see is is just not right. So my point in this photo once again was this electrical conduit inside that that that silver corrugated metal right dairy wiring for the house you're right up against the Yeah, and you can see all the corrosion right at that joint so that could be caused by that it's hard to say but as Robert pointed out, there's there's hangers with no rubber on that hanger either.

Robert Deyl: 34:22

Yeah exactly no protection on those hangers yeah the belt is the best but if you get at least have they make 10 mil 10 right

John Laforme: 34:29

there

Robert Deyl: 34:30

yeah that's that's the big known out and all you need is one spot in the system in contact with galvanized like that and it can ruin everything so it's it's people think that oh, it's just gonna affect the pipe in that area. But no, it it electrolysis travels, you know, like cancer through the system and

John Laforme: 34:50

you want to hand me that piece of galvanized there who now this here this pipe here is tip glean what's been upgraded. So this was in the house this is what years would you say that we typically find this

Robert Deyl: 35:06

it in the homes built in the 50s? I would say most common mostly 50s. Before and even a little after, I would say there's there's there's gonna be galvanized.

John Laforme: 35:15

Yeah, I think it goes a bit higher than that I think I would say it's

Robert Deyl: 35:22

really late 60s. Yeah,

John Laforme: 35:24

I've seen it. I've seen it some 70s houses to where it's been. Okay, so I think it's gone. I think it's stretched out pretty far on that. But anyway, if you will see inside the end of the pipe, that's all rust and corrosion buildup. So these pipes, what they do is they corrode from the inside. And they just fill up with rust. So this was once a long time ago, a three quarter inch pipe. And now it's probably the size of a half inch on the inside, right or less. So you can see inside here too. But anyway, so this is galvanized steel. How do we know? Well put a magnet on it. I forgot to bring one up to the podcast here. But this is if I see this painted, I can't tell what it is knocking on it's not going to tell me. Sure I could scratch it with my screwdriver, I guess. But I just carry a magnet with me. Actually, you know what, I do have my magnet right here. This is how I do it. I grab one of these. Bam. So if I have any, any like, I'm not sure if I'm scratching my head going what kind of pipe is that? Because a lot of times pipe sticking out of the wall of a house or painted. Right. And you may see copper right here and like oh yeah, but that pipe looks a little different. These types of elbows will also give it away.

Robert Deyl: 36:52

Right good and see a little bit of thread, see a

John Laforme: 36:54

little bit of thread, you see these elbows right here. So there's a lot of indicators. But if you're a new home inspector, this can trick you if it's painted. So carry one of these, they sell these at Home Depot held a box of them. And just keep them keep one in your pocket or a key I keep mine on my camera bag. So it's handy. Because I might be in an attic, same thing. Sometimes I just can't tell because this colored and just I don't like guessing this is not a guessing game. When you're inspecting a house, you just want to get as many facts as you can. So this is my way of telling this is not going to stick to that. Right? It sticks to this plumber's tape. So that's how you can tell guys. But anyway, this is what was in a lot of houses, older homes. And this was removed to put either this or this in place. The reason why I want to get into this is because a lot of times this is left under the house. They don't cut it out. It's still hanging in there. And then they take one of these and they go like this, right? Or they go like this. I see him all the time. And this is why these pipes are getting discolored and pitted and corroded is because there's too much contact with dissimilar metals. Right? So this is a daily thing for me to find. I could literally see this four times a week. Yeah, and I see it all the time to under a model Tao. So if you're having your house repaved, tell your plumber to remove all of your old galvanized Tom to get rid of it. If you have to pay extra it's worth it. Just tell him to cut it out and throw it away. Yeah, it's really easy to cut, I just cut this I just cut a piece of this this morning with a Sawzall and a hack and a metal blade. I was through that in less than 30 seconds, right? So it's really easy to do. Any, any other tips you want to tell people about this stuff?

Robert Deyl: 38:57

You know, I think you kind of, you know, hit everything. It's, it's kind of in an older home the first thing and the plumbing system would go out is the original galvanized water piping is the first thing we'll see go out. And then you know, it'll have to be updated with either copper or packs. And I would say probably most of them have probably already been updated now they're in 2022. And they you know, it came out it was primarily installed you know, the 70s and prior so we see some sometimes but but yeah, but definitely the the galvanized water lines there. If there's any out they're still there. They're definitely at the end of their service lifespan

John Laforme: 39:37

and I just thought of another problem I find with this stuff. So in some houses we'll see what's called cross connections. So they'll connect new copper yet to this existing galvanized because they were only doing what's called Spot repairs. So what that means is only a small section or maybe it was a large section of the galvanized failed And then the plumber gave the homeowner the price to repipe the house and they said what? And they said you know what? Why don't you just fix that one spot for now? Right? And then if it was an inexperienced plumber or just a hack, then he would just connect these directly together and guess what? What does that cause we just talked about that electrolysis same as here, if it's sitting on top of it, it's going to have the same effect as being attached to it. Yes, so the what I typically see when this is done if it's done correctly, is a piece of brass in between them

Robert Deyl: 40:31

yes, it's supposed to be a six inch brass nipple yeah of separation is the best way to do it. So

John Laforme: 40:37

that's interesting because you get galvanized here then you got brass and you get copper. So for some reason brass is the is the the mediator.

Robert Deyl: 40:47

Exactly. For some for whatever reason, the the brass, it stops the electrolysis from traveling through and it's into rotting away the copper wonder how

John Laforme: 40:56

they figured that out? Yeah, she's, that's anybody know about that call me. I'm gonna have you as a guest, because I'd like to know how they eventually figured that out. So that's a common thing. That's called a cross connection. If you're getting a home inspected, you make your home inspector may report this cross connection. So that would that's what it means. It means you still have galvanized pipe in service, and it's connected to a new piece of copper. That's not going to be a case for pecks. Right. It's just plastic, but I don't think I've seen pecks connected to this can is that possible?

Robert Deyl: 41:30

It's possible to do it. They make adapters we do from again, you have threaded

John Laforme: 41:35

pipe. I don't think I've seen that yet. Okay. Okay. But I look for it. Yeah, I

Robert Deyl: 41:39

don't remember seeing it either. Yeah.

John Laforme: 41:41

Cool. All right. So going back to the hangers, you got some examples of what you you use

Robert Deyl: 41:48

Oh, yeah, there's, there's a variety of plastic hangers, you can use, you know, in a wall or under the house, we call this the Mickey Mouse hanger, because it looks like Mickey Mouse a little bit with the ears. So that'll, you know, that's a good way to you know, hang the pipe under the house. And it's just plastic, so there's not going to be any electrolysis happening. And then there's also just different hangers. This is called this an isolator, we can drill a hole through like a wood stud and then put this in the hole right and then feed the pipe through it gives it real good bracing and maybe coming through the floor, or, or through a stud. Sure. See how those are. You just once you start using steel hangers, you want to be really careful protecting the pipe with additional protection. Felt is kind of the best. But they also make a plumber's tape a 10 mil or 20 mil plumber's tape, wrap it around a couple of times. And at least you did that for an added.

John Laforme: 42:45

Yeah, I do see that act now that you bring that up. I do remember seeing that where copper was right below this galvanized and they actually put a separator in between the two of them, right. And I could just chop that piece out and just been done with it. I just don't I don't understand the laziness going on today. Right? To me, it's just laziness. And these are decent SAS crawl spaces where you can get around. Right? Like, it's hard.

Robert Deyl: 43:08

Looking to save a couple of minutes here or there.

John Laforme: 43:10

Yeah, and the one the one thing too, I want to mention to home inspectors for sure is when you're looking at Copper, it's not always turned in the direction where you can read the label. Right. So if you're under a house and you're on your back, and you're looking up, what kind of pipe is that you can't see any color to it, there's no tag on it, then you have to make a note unable to determine type of copper, you don't want to leave there without identifying it. So if you can't identify it, you want to say could not determine it because you just can't see the label. Right? There's no way you're not gonna be able to tell if it's eller it's L or M unless you can see the color or a specific label on it. Right. So I see that a lot I cannot I cannot identify a pipe because I just do not see a label. It's just the way it was in or the pipe was just poorly labeled. Right. And so that happens to it's not always stamped correctly. Yeah, it could definitely happen. So Okay, any other thing you want to talk about with clamps or any?

Robert Deyl: 44:11

No I just think yeah, overall, you know the the, the type L copper with the blue is the higher quality less likely to get pinhole leaks and much more rigid, longer lasting and the type M with the red is just that the thinner material which can be more susceptible to pit in and leaks and things like that. Right. So just to kind of sum that up.

John Laforme: 44:33

So I recently just did a house and it was that it was in Palmdale. Pretty big house. in it. I did find type M copper in several areas. So it just made me believe the whole house had died down. Right and I found a really really hard leak to find just by using my thermal gun. Just a courtesy scam With my thermal imaging Guide, which is what I typically do it on a second storey house when the ceilings there's any bathrooms above or you know, could be some kind of a pipe leak. And I found type em copper, it's somebody made a hole below the way the leak was on, somebody knew is leaking, right. And they made a hole and they just didn't, they just never opened it up to fix it. It was in the garage. And you could see, I could see the stamp on it Claire's day the red stamp. And then right next to it, I could see a bunch of pitting. And then on the other side of that it was dripping. So it was really actively leaking in the house and I found two different spots that were actually leaking. Right, so I've actually witnessed

Robert Deyl: 45:42

it. They've witnessed that it wears out faster.

John Laforme: 45:45

One there's another thing I want to point out too is pinhole leaks are so noisy, aren't they?

Robert Deyl: 45:53

You know, really, I can be real quiet and

John Laforme: 45:58

yeah, pinhole leaks. I've had some experience with pinhole leaks. I have literally walked up to a water heater before. And I'm just taking my pictures hitting what am I flashlight, just doing my thing, documenting the tank the size and just basically inspecting it. It took me about five minutes to realize that this pipe above the water heater was actually leaking. It was a pinhole and it was spraying in the opposite direction. And you can't hear it. It does not make a noise. Not the ones I've seen. It does not make a noise. And then as I finally caught on to him, like I saw a little moisture on the ground. I'm like, Where's that coming from? And I really had to look to find this pinhole. It had to be so tiny and it was spraying. It was spraying a wall. Like further to my right. I'm trying I'm looking I'm looking. I'm looking in this direction. And this pinhole was way over here kind of at the sides of the pipe and is going that way. Yeah. So I was not getting hit with any type of water. I wasn't getting a spray. And it was really interesting to like holy shit. I could have easily walked away from that not even knowing that was there. If I didn't scope the other side of it. I'm just saying it's, it's really quiet. And I found another one. I found another one in a house. And what caught my eye first was on the right side of the water heater. All's I could see was mold. This is in someone's garage, and their washer and dryer was over here on the left water heater was here. And then there was a gap between the water heater and the exterior wall the garage and I'm like why is that all black? My was it was that wall black and of the Holy shit. That's mold. It was everywhere. And like, interesting. And then I started noticing a little bit of moisture. And then I looked up and once again, a pinhole. You could not hear that pinhole at all right? I grabbed the homeowner who's actually living there who's still still at the house said, Did you not notice this? Oh, yeah, we noticed that a couple of months ago.

Robert Deyl: 48:06

She's Yeah, and a hot water leak can really, you know, accelerate the growth of the mold a lot faster than cold water. And I'm just one thing I learned from the water damage. Guys, when there's a hot water leak. It's a lot worse than old versus cold water. Interesting. Yeah, for some reason, the mold just grows way faster with the added temperature.

John Laforme: 48:28

I never heard that. I don't have to call my boy in the mold department. See what he says about that? Yeah, I'd never heard that before. Interesting. And then I was under a house. Big tall crawlspace easy to get around. Much older home like 1920s or something. And I saw some water. I'm like, why is it water over there? I don't see anything leaking. I had to get right under this pinhole to see it. You could not see the mist anything. It was barely barely noticeable. And I have my glasses on. So I'm like I know, I can see, you know, and I was like wow, so pinholes are they're not loud. They're not noisy. And they're not going to give you a warning when they start

Robert Deyl: 49:10

right and then long term it can be you know a tremendous amount of damage caused by especially on a hot water line. Exactly. So yeah, very important to just slow down and kind of take a look at everything Don't be in such a hurry. Yeah.

John Laforme: 49:24

So to sum it all up, it all starts with the regulator.

Robert Deyl: 49:29

Yeah, it all starts with the regulator protecting the whole house. You know, keeping the pressure down is gonna go a long way. And then making sure your copper you know, under the house or wherever you can see it doesn't have you know, isn't in contact with galvanized Yeah, and you know, make sure there's not like old old galvanized into the house too. And like you said, sometimes they they do half and half I see that a lot where they'll just do the do copper underneath the house where it's accessible, but they didn't want to demo the walls or demo the shower so they left of the risers galvanized steel

John Laforme: 50:02

yet this will be is to be in the wall, the showers actually

Robert Deyl: 50:05

they never changed those out. So they're probably due to be changed out.

John Laforme: 50:10

I do catch that a lot in a crawlspace. Because I can see where that connection is most of the time when I'm in a crawlspace if there's a crawlspace. I do call that out quite a bit where I'll see that the vertical runs inside going up and like yeah, they they upgraded your upgraded your water supply pipe, but only probably 90% of it right? You still get stuff in the walls. And that's only because the homeowner didn't want to demo the bathroom. Like sometimes there's a shower and the the showerheads typically has this thing in place. Right? And then there may not be an accessible wall on the other side.

Robert Deyl: 50:45

Right? That could be back to back shower, where you'd have to do some serious demolition to Yeah,

John Laforme: 50:51

we're talking we're talking taken demo and all your tile out of your shower. It's a big job. So that's why a lot of people just choose not to do that. And that's why a lot of times it's in the home inspection report. That's only partially done.

Robert Deyl: 51:04

Right? Because eventually it will have to be done. They just didn't do it then.

John Laforme: 51:07

Right. Right. Okay, so Robert, let's talk about cross linked polyethylene. All right, otherwise known as pecs, pipe.

Robert Deyl: 51:17

Go for it. Absolutely. So and pecs piping. There's the two most common versions, I would say there's there's pecs, a, and a leading manufacturer of the pecs, A is open are is a very common brand I'll see and how the pecs A is, in my opinion, the you know, the highest quality version and and most common I see out there in the field. And how the pecs a works is in what makes it different from packs, B packs a it's an expansion system is used to connect the fittings to it. So how it works is this is you could see the pecs a there I don't know if you can see the writing, but it says it on the side pecs, A, that's how you identify if you're under a house or are working on a job stamped on it. And how it works is we first take this, this is an expansion ring here. And we go ahead and it only goes on one way you can only get on one side of it because the other side smaller. So we go ahead, we push this ring onto it there. And then we have this this gun, this one's by Milwaukee and opener. And what happens is, this metal part of the gun goes into the expansion ring. And we press it and it's expanding the ring. And it's also rotating to make to get this guy expanded stretching it out for us. And then we take the gun away. We take our fit in, push it on all the way and it's slowly compressing back to its original original shape here that is a really cool tool right there. Ya know pretty pretty neat. So you can see how fast you know just do one joint was pretty quickly with the tool ring and now that's going to be watertight you know, up to I think 100 psi the double check the tag for hot water, but even stronger PSI for cold water. So yeah, this is a you know, a very good system very fast to install. So again, this is the pecs a system. Now something very, you know, important to understand is that the pecs a system, which are and here's an adapter, you could transition a copper with it. The pecs a system and the pecs B system, they they run off of different concept to connect the joints together. So this is the pecs expansion, the pecs B system, you would not want to use the expansion tool, it's not designed for that. So it has, you know, a different type of fitting. And how it works is it's kind of a simpler method, I guess you could say, or more basic method, you put this this ring over the pipe first this metal ring, then you put the fitting on like that. You slide the ring back over it and then there's a tool here it looks like bolt cutters might support that. And this is kind of you know, they saw this at Home Depot is more of like a handyman or homeowner version kind of in my opinion. Well this particular version, and this goes over the ring there and you go ahead and give it a squeeze. And that's it. So that's that's a joint there on the pecs B system Now, yeah, something, something I've seen, you know, once on a home inspection was, whoever was was was doing the work, they they mixed up the fittings, they had the be piping with the AC system. So what happened in a scenario like that it's an improper install there. They're not interchangeable these

John Laforme: 55:26

so because that because that fitting is brass,

Robert Deyl: 55:29

because this particular the be piping is not designed to be expanded with the expansion tool.

John Laforme: 55:37

Oh, so they use the expansion tool on the B Yeah, so the the

Robert Deyl: 55:40

what is they use the expansion tool on the B. And when I was there, I didn't see it leaking. But I knew right away something was off and on. I saw his pecs be I realize they they use the AIFF. And the system got it. So just something to keep an eye out for if if it's a PECS B pipe, you want to see these these rings crimped around the outside of these metal rings. When it's a PECS a system, you want to see these expansion joints? These are

John Laforme: 56:09

similar. So the one outside the one you just described that was wrong. Had the pecs be the head, the B that had the a fitting? Exactly It had the A

Robert Deyl: 56:22

attachment? Exactly. So they mixed up the two pipes. And I was actually surprised it wasn't leaking. But it's definitely not intended to be like that. And I let him know that it was wrong and probably

John Laforme: 56:33

so that he is the is the beat just a cheaper version.

Robert Deyl: 56:36

Yeah, the B is a less expensive, cheaper version. I would say I would say it's, you know, cheaper to install? Because you only you know, you need this inexpensive. So, versus the electric

John Laforme: 56:51

version. In other words, type m of copper. It's the type m of packs. Yeah,

Robert Deyl: 56:56

exactly. It's it's the the type in packs. Yeah, I've I, I install, you know, a little bit of packs from time to time. And I always go for the pecs a and open our systems makes

John Laforme: 57:09

sense. I mean, I can even do that. I'm blessed. I just watched what you did. I meant I'm in amazement, because I've never seen anybody actually assemble this stuff. Do you want to try one? John, I could actually do it. All right, I need to try one.

Robert Deyl: 57:23

That's good there. And so once you want, you want to shove the tool and just pull the trigger until it kind of bottoms out all the

John Laforme: 57:30

way and it's kind of what do it like what six

Robert Deyl: 57:32

or seven. It might be like four to six times range. So just

John Laforme: 57:35

push it and then just pull push it.

Robert Deyl: 57:38

Yep, you give it a trigger, squeeze. Just hold it one more. Okay. And then you can pull it out and go ahead and slide that in there. And just hold it just let it hold it for a little, maybe 1015 seconds. Let it come back down.

John Laforme: 58:00

Has anybody ever stuck their finger in there and kind of get it out?

Robert Deyl: 58:05

That I've heard of but I think it's it's gonna squeeze back down.

John Laforme: 58:09

All you pranksters out there. Don't try this. Probably crush your thumb. You put your thumb in there or something.

Robert Deyl: 58:15

Oh, yeah. Now you can say, Dude, I

John Laforme: 58:17

can plumb my house now. I'm just curious. This is easy. Yeah, no, it's

Robert Deyl: 58:21

it's not a whole not a whole lot to it. Wow.

John Laforme: 58:25

Wow, I'm impressed that that is so easy.

Robert Deyl: 58:28

Yeah, so it is a it's definitely a pretty, pretty cool system. And the pecs is, it's less likely to get like a pinhole leak like you would see in copper. And there's going to be no electrolysis. Right? You know, because it's black. It's a plastic.

John Laforme: 58:42

Now this is not this is not supposed to be exposed to the sun. Right?

Robert Deyl: 58:46

Correct. Yeah, I would want this I would not want to expose the sun. This is for under the house, you know, in the attic and the walls? Yeah, definitely not.

John Laforme: 58:55

Now, there's a fitting that we probably hadn't brought with us as the SharkBite. You know what, I think I do have one here. Oh, great, because I want to cover that because there's a there's a mixed opinion about using these and where they should be used. And I'd like to go like this, you know, point that out today.

Robert Deyl: 59:17

This, this SharkBite fitting I have here. This is for like a lot a laundry hose bib here. And how SharkBite works is it can work on copper or packs. It can go on either materials. And it just has this this push to connect fitting with a rubber O ring inside and a bunch of teeth that kind of hold it in. Okay. So really what you want to do you want to you want to take a Sharpie and mark the pipe. Make sure it's going in all the way before you do it. But just just for example here we'll show so you go ahead and you you push it in and boom it it kind of sunk in about a half an inch approximately. And that's locked in you To turn the water on, it's all you gotta do. That's all you got to do with the shark bite done deal. Now, shark bites, you know, they are UPC approved, which the uniform plumbing code, which is the standard in California for plumbing installations. Now, me personally, I, I don't use these a whole lot, I can only only use them in a special scenario where, you know, other, you know, soldering wouldn't work or I have another system appropriate system where that was too difficult to get that tool in place. But my advice on on these fittings is if you're going to install them, leave them in a place where they're, you know, visually accessible in the future example, I would, I would put it on, I would feel comfortable leaving it like on top of a water heater in a garage, or at the front of the house where all the piping is visible near the regulator in that area, or even underneath the house in a crawlspace you know where it's visible. I don't love, you know, putting these like in a wall and then covering it with sheet rock forever. No one can see it anymore. Right. So I personally liked that, you know, be able to see it in the future. You know, just it just makes me feel a little better about I'll

John Laforme: 1:01:17

tell you right now, I would not put that my house. I see. I just saw what you did. And I'm like no tools required. Now that scares me. On depressurized pipe. Yeah, I would not feel comfortable that in my house.

Robert Deyl: 1:01:28

Yeah. If it first I would say a lot of people would would say that. But kind of, I guess once you use it, you know, a handful of times you get you get comfortable with it and

John Laforme: 1:01:37

tell me you put it in my house. They'll tell me, I'll be sleeping.

Robert Deyl: 1:01:41

Yeah, we we always go for the the soldering and the pro press first. Yeah, and this is kind of a last resort. And just, you know, sometimes you can get in a scenario where those other tools, it's just too tough to pull something off. And then the shark bites occasionally. It'll it'll really, it'll save you in in a certain scenario.

John Laforme: 1:02:01

Yeah. So yeah. I really like I'm impressed with this.

Robert Deyl: 1:02:05

In our system. Yeah. I'm

John Laforme: 1:02:06

really impressed with that.

Robert Deyl: 1:02:08

Yeah, no, it's it's a it's a real cool system. And we're all I'll use this as on tankless water heaters, if there's a recirculation pump, and we run a recirculation line for it, I'll use the three quarter inch packs under the house to make a return loop.

John Laforme: 1:02:25

So tell me when you're when you're installing this under a house? What what is the required strapping for this? Because I never see this stuff drop properly.

Robert Deyl: 1:02:34

You know what I would I would, I would say about every four feet would be at least

John Laforme: 1:02:39

a good a good, pretty rigid. Yeah, actually

Robert Deyl: 1:02:42

it is, it is pretty rigid, yes, rigid,

John Laforme: 1:02:44

so it's not gonna sag unless it already has a bend in it. And then

Robert Deyl: 1:02:48

when we, when we strap it, we use these plastic straps. This is a very simple plastic strap with a nail in it, to nail it to, you know, the wood underneath the house. And it just just snaps right in place right over the pipe like that. And we tack the nail in. And this way, it's plastic on plastic. We don't we don't, we don't want to use any metal plumber's tape on this either. You don't want metal touching plastic rubbing in long term, maybe it could create an issue.

John Laforme: 1:03:17

So it is okay, obviously. So I just want to point out I think it's pretty obvious, but I'll say it anyway, that it's okay to run this through a floor into the crawlspace. You

Robert Deyl: 1:03:27

know what it is? Okay, you will definitely want to make sure you have stud guards on it to protect from someone driving a nail through in the future a screw, right? Kind of the I've done a couple of the pipes where we've done packs, and what we would do is we would run the packs underneath the house in the crawlspace. And then the risers coming up. We would put copper for the risers.

John Laforme: 1:03:50

That's a good point. I'm glad you mentioned that Sam was forgot to bring that up. Good point. Sometimes I go into homes and I see packs coming right through the wall for the toilet supply. Right. It's all wobbly. And like any right yeah, it's

Robert Deyl: 1:04:03

not right. They make Is there a code for that? Is it Yeah, it's it's supposed to be a rigid pipe kind of strapped coming out right? And they make they make a copper fitting. It's like a 90 where you could if you wanted you could connect the packs in the wall and then coming out of the wall, it's copper and you're able to fasten that and say exactly has screw holes like a bracket you could screw on some would make it real rigid. But I would say another common way is like what I said we'll put you know copper piping in the wall just because it's stronger if someone ever drives the nail through. We'll still put stud guards of course, but just a little more rigid in the wall, but then under the house or it's exposed. We'll put the packs because you can

John Laforme: 1:04:44

see I've seen I've seen Hose Bibs, copper coming out the exterior wall of a house and I'm going like this wood is just shaking. It's moving back and forth in and out and right under the house and I could see

Robert Deyl: 1:04:54

I always get nervous stuff like that when I run this stuff like that too. But they had

John Laforme: 1:04:59

they had the pecs connected to the car, but they didn't have the copper mounted, right? It was just loose or just a piece of pipe just sticking to the wall. They didn't mount it properly so that the pecs and that would stay stable. You know?

Robert Deyl: 1:05:11

Yeah, you really want to go the extra mile to you know, strap stuff down good. And in those scenarios, because then the next guy, like you come along, John is loses a tooth and you're thinking what's going on? Or me I'm working on something outside and then it's it's the pipe shakin under the house and you're like, oh, no, no, I got to see what's going on down there. Make sure it's actually connected. So you get afraid when you turn the water back on when it's loses a tooth under the house? Yeah,

John Laforme: 1:05:35

yep. Yep. Yeah, that's, that's a really, that was a really good display of some interesting stuff. And when you said you can attach either one to copper. Yeah, so I use soldering that.

Robert Deyl: 1:05:47

So what you would do, or we could talk about the opener system first? Yeah, I would put in Did you have a piece of copper here still job? Yeah, me grab that. What we would do, yeah, we would, we would clean this clean both ends, you know, sandpaper and a brush and then put flux, put, put these together, you know, like so. And then we would go ahead and we would solder this joint here. So that would this is brass is copper. So they would they would solder together make a leak, like leak free joint. And then when it cooled down, we wouldn't want to leave it hot, we'd give it a chance to cool down. And then we would, you know, take our piece of the expansion pipe, expand it with the ring. And then we would fit it on here. And now that's how we would transition to copper. So if it was was coming down through a wall, then we could expect a piece of text between the two there, right? The expansion rings and connected under the house like that.

John Laforme: 1:06:52

Got it. So interesting. So how long does it take for that to cool down once you started that?

Robert Deyl: 1:06:57

I mean, if you're just letting it sit there alone, maybe like five minutes, something like that. It could take a little bit but usually we let it sit for a minute and get a little impatient and put a wet rag on it clean it up. But just Yeah, it's good to let it cool a little bit naturally. You don't want to put water on it. Right. Okay.

John Laforme: 1:07:15

Interesting. And you said there is a way to there is a way to fasten this to galvanized

Robert Deyl: 1:07:21

Yes. So they they make all sorts of adapters for the packs, like instead of having a solder joint on the side, they make one that would be like a male adapter or male iron pipe thread. So you could just go ahead and Teflon tape and pipe dope and screw that right into a galvanized fit in. And then you could put the expansion loop in our system coming off of it. Okay, so yeah, they even have they have all sorts of fittings in like Shark Bite, you know, you could you can connect shark bite on both sides, if you wanted to shark by coupling or 90. They also have pro press where you could do a pro press copper, which is like a compression type of a newer tool. So you could do pro press on one side and then pecks on the other. So there's a lot of different variations of things you can do for sure to adapt to.

John Laforme: 1:08:11

Wow, that's awesome, man. That's, I learned a few things today. That's awesome. I also have a piece of schedule 40 omega C Yes. Let's talk once you grab that, let's talk about that. Yes, so where would we would we use this in a house.

Robert Deyl: 1:08:30

So when when people a lot of people think pvc piping in Me too I think you know outdoor sprinkler systems irrigation. So yeah, this is primarily used in a lot of outdoor sprinkler piping and such. But in this this is schedule 40 PVC, which is a pretty thick wall, PVC pipe may be a little tough to tell. So it is a thick wall and pretty, you know relatively durable material when installed you know with care. So this actually, it is approved in Los Angeles to run schedule 40 PVC from the water meter to the house. So you could do a water service. I've seen that from the water meter to the house. Generally what you would want to do, you know, I would probably transition to copper you know before it comes out of the ground just to make it like a little more rigid coming up and so the sun's not hitting it. But I have seen it's coming out of the ground for like six inches in the pudding male adapter then transition to like brass and then a copper. Yep, so I've seen that. So you are allowed to use this for a water main water water service from the meter to the house. And of course less expensive than running copper pipe way less expensive.

John Laforme: 1:09:46

Now would you say that that's across the board in Los Angeles as far as being able to use that

Robert Deyl: 1:09:51

I would I remember I checked like five years back and I think it was LA City who was approved. I'm not I don't remember if it was if it was LA County. I'd have to Uh,

John Laforme: 1:10:00

kind of check that and I see that I make a note of that, that they should have a plumber determine whether or not that that's allowed because I just can't tell. Right. And I'll remember I can only see a little bit of

Robert Deyl: 1:10:11

it right a little piece maybe at the meter coming out of the ground. Yeah, so And overall, it's a good product, but you're, you're more likely to get a problem eventually, from like a tree pushing tree roots pushing it, if it's too close to a tree, the root could lift it and cause it to crack and leak. Or if you know, one day someone's trying to plant a tree in the front yard, they could break it with a shovel easier by accident. So really, copper, you know, for that, you know, from the the water meter to the house is is the best just was very durable. And

John Laforme: 1:10:42

yeah, that's something I always suggest that they upgrade that I'm not a big fan of seeing that going. And, like once again, I know it pressurized means and I know what it can do except seen the damage if it fails, right. So I always go for the stronger, more reliable type of a pipe. But you know what I see this stuff. I'm not saying it's always scheduled 40. But a lot of a lot of landscapers run it under the house, right? That's what I was gonna and I point that out all the time, that's a no no,

Robert Deyl: 1:11:12

right. So this, you're allowed to use this, you know, underground from the meter to the house to serve as water to the house. But that's kind of where it stops, you're not supposed to use this to distribute water, you know, under the house getting from the front of the house to the back of the house that should be copper more rigid material.

John Laforme: 1:11:32

So you don't prefer number one, you don't want this in your water supply system.

Robert Deyl: 1:11:35

Exactly. You don't want this like under your house feeding fixtures or feeding water to the water heater, you want that to be copper or packs. So this primarily you would see from the you know, the water meter to the front of the house. And then on the exterior, you'd see it supplying sprinkler valves is fine for your outdoor irrigation. But you really don't want to see this going under the house for the for the irrigation for the irrigation in the back yard, or for hose bibs coming out or whatever, you don't really want to see this.

John Laforme: 1:12:03

I've seen the house, I've seen some very creative plumbing from gardeners with that stuff I've seen it to into the garage, above over the garage door down, outside again. And then they leave it exposed all the way across the yard. Right? My guys supposed to bury it. And it shouldn't be in the house in the first place.

Robert Deyl: 1:12:23

Right? They they try to run it under the house because now they don't have to break concrete or on the exterior or dig through the dirt or whatever. So I've seen it a lot to you. It's technically not supposed to be like that it's supposed to be a higher quality material under the house. Right? So

John Laforme: 1:12:37

what's your opinion on this type of irrigation pipe being regulated?

Robert Deyl: 1:12:43

So the piping itself is very strong. It says right here it can handle 480 psi, it's 73 degrees Fahrenheit. But really you're not going to see those types of pressure you're going to usually see like 120 550 You know 107 What about the fixtures attached to it but yes, where we get the trouble is the sprinkler valves inside of these valves it's it's they have rubber diaphragm and rubber washers that hold back the high pressure. So what happens is a lot of these the sprinkler valves on the top of them they'll say they can handle 150 psi and as the plastic ones even say that and don't don't believe it it's not true. So the if you're gonna have no regulator the best sprinkler valves you could have are the all brass ones they do they do the best in my opinion and holding back the higher pressure. But really if you have high water pressure, you know over 100 psi, you're gonna want to get a pressure regulator on your irrigation and the reason is the especially with the plastic cheaper sprinkler valves, the high pressure it's it's going to cause issues with those valves it's going to end up the valves are gonna end up leaking and water passing through when you want them and you're gonna get a high water bill and things are going and they're a lot noisier two things are gonna end up happening. Yeah, definitely. That's good point. Yeah, high pressure

John Laforme: 1:14:11

no different than the it's no different than the pressure on faucets and fixtures in a house they're going to have their limitations depending on what how why they're made.

Robert Deyl: 1:14:18

Exactly another plan. Another interesting thing I learned about you know too much high pressure going to your sprinkler system is that you know when the sprinklers themselves turn on when the pressures like extreme like 120 550 pounds. It it shoots a fine mist coming out of the sprinkler heads like a real fine mist is coming out because the high pressure and the wind catches it and it just blows it into the street onto the sidewalk onto your car. Good point but at a lower pressure like 65 pounds 70 or 8065 80 pound range. It it lets out larger droplets of water that are heavier and they fall to the ground like this grasses like they're supposed to. They're not getting caught in the wind blown away. So just that's

John Laforme: 1:15:08

that's good input, man. Thanks for that. Yes, kind of a lot landscapers, you guys getting all this? As I'm telling you, man, a lot of you guys don't do a good job on your landscaping with these pipes. I see just messes with these all the time.

Robert Deyl: 1:15:22

Yeah, no, you'll notice if the sprinklers are running at like 80 psi. It's a real real nice system. But when the pressure gets too high, it just looks something looks off.

John Laforme: 1:15:31

regulate your water, everybody that's gonna take away from today regulate all your pressurized water. Yep, absolutely. Well, Robert, I think we covered it, man. I think we're good. We stuck to the good episode of water supply pipe and I like it. I think we should just leave it right there. Once again, how do people find you in the Los Angeles area if they want to find you?

Robert Deyl: 1:15:53

Yeah, so yeah, my name my name, my company's Robert, Robert Dell plumbing. And my phone number is 818-606-4351. And also have a website Roberto plumbing.com.

John Laforme: 1:16:06

All right, Robert Dell. That was a great. Thanks for letting me play with the power tools, man.

Robert Deyl: 1:16:11

Oh, absolutely. Now, I'm happy to

John Laforme: 1:16:13

say that my other guests do not bring toys for me. You're the first one to bring me a toy to play with.

Robert Deyl: 1:16:19

I guess I got some more stuff.

John Laforme: 1:16:21

I might repipe the house today. That was actually pretty cool. But before we go, one last thing, I gotta tell you. I have a running toilet that you need to go catch.

Robert Deyl: 1:16:30

Okay. Have you tried to trip it?

John Laforme: 1:16:36

I'm actually I actually have a running toilet. And I don't feel like fixing it. I don't want to mess with it. I'm too busy. I got too much other shit to do. And Robert is now going to go downstairs and fix my toilet. Absolutely. Because he's the man. He's the man. And thanks for coming on the show again. All right. My pleasure. Thanks for having him. I want to let everybody know Robert was on episode four. Which was way back in September 2001 When I first started my podcast, and we talked about the importance of sewer camera inspections on any type of property, because you never know what you're going to find. So check out that podcast as well. And see you on the next one. Oh, sounds good,

Robert Deyl: 1:17:19

John, thanks. I'll see you.

John Laforme: 1:17:20

I'll see you under a house somewhere eventually. All right. Take care.