All Things Roofing with Chris Keil From A-1 All American Roofing

Chris Keil  from A-1 All American Roofing Joins me for some straight talk about all things roofing. I have run into Chris on many roofs in the past and he has always taken the time to answer any questions i may have had about roofing materials, flashings, skylights etc. Chris shares his 30 years of roofing experience with us which makes him an encyclopedia of all things roofing.

Chris and I discuss:
: Using aerial drones for roof inspections.
: How to identify multiple roofing layers and the inherent issues that come with this condition.
: How to identify if a clay tile roof is actually fastened to the roof sheathing.
: Roof/Attic ventilation options and recommendations.
: How to identify TPO vs PVC roofing materials.
: How to identify missing or non standard flashing installations.
: Chimney/Roof Flashing (Who's Job Is It to install the correct flashings?).
: How to inspect skylights for proper flashing and fastening (make sure its screwed in place).
: Silicone Roof coatings are very effective if applied correctly.
: Low slope roofs with inadequate pitch for proper drainage.
: Stone coated metal roofs (do not walk on them because they dent).
: Metal roofs and inadequate ventilation that leads to condensation on ceilings.

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John Laforme
Certified CREIA Inspector Member #0155263
Home Inspection Authority LLC

Former President of CREIA Mid Valley Chapter
Former Vice President of CREIA Mid Valley Chapter

You can contact Chris Keil Directly:
818-438-8004
crsk@socal.rr.com

Transcript

John Laforme: 0:00

Buying a home. Don't panic. Just listen to the rest of this podcast Alright everybody, welcome back to another episode of Home Inspection authority Straight Talk podcast with me, John laforme. I'm a CREIA certified home inspector from Los Angeles, California. And the topics we discuss on this podcast are about buying homes selling homes, inspecting homes. So if you're a home inspector, home buyer, real estate professional, this podcast is definitely for you. All right, welcome back, everybody. Today we are here with today's special guest, Chris Keil. I said it right didn't know you did a nice job. All right, Chris is with a one all American roofing and today we're gonna get into some straight talk about roof inspections. And you know, roofs in general materials, you name it. We're gonna try to pick Chris's brain thoroughly here. And, you know, help educate anybody buying a house, you home inspectors as well what to look for. And, you know, real estate, or I'm sorry, realtors. You should also pay attention to this, because you're going to see a lot of this his findings in my findings in home inspection reports. So Chris, tell me about yourself. Well, I'm Roof Contractor.

Chris Keil: 1:33

That's what I used to be. And that's what I kind of came to the place that I'm at now, which is mostly doing roof inspections for, as you said, homebuyers, so I'm kind of tied in with a lot of the home inspectors know me. And real estate agents know me, and I'm really enjoying doing roof inspections every day. Yeah, it's good. Yeah, I've seen you on a few roofs.

John Laforme: 2:02

I haven't seen you lately that I've noticed. I was like, you know, I haven't seen him in a while. We just knew each other. Three days in a row. Yeah, yes. Our circles are outside of each other right now. They haven't crossed. So we haven't I haven't seen you in a good six months, maybe longer. Anyway, so your your main position now as a roof inspector? And you said you say that you're doing probably over 700 roof inspections a year? That's That's double what I do. Well, you're there a little longer than I? Yeah. Yeah, that's a lot. That's that's a lot of work. So here's the number one question that any home inspector would have for you. And as a Do you climb every roof no matter what it is? Or do you use a drone sometimes? So how do you deal with that? So if you'd asked me that two, two and a half years ago, I would have said yes, I go up on every roof, if at all possible. There are some roofs that I mean, even back then that I wouldn't climb if they're just way too steep. or way too brittle of material that might get damaged. But since I got a drone about two years, two and a half years ago, I'm using it probably one out of every four something like that. Either due to difficulty of access or the homeowner, not necessarily wanting me to walk on their their tile roof for instance. Well, I gotta give you a big applause for the for you know, buying a drone because you know, most people they're afraid of drones. I have this conversation all the time with people. Hey, there's a chimney guy that I've seen on several jobs. This guy has got balls of steel. Yeah, he you wouldn't believe this shit. I've seen him climb I'm looking at him go What the fuck are you doing? Yeah, I used to I used to me too though. I used to build build houses. Yeah, when I was young and didn't fear death. I used to climb everything myself and I looked to him a guy you remind me of a younger me nowadays I'm so cautious it's it's good. We have to just to be but that's why I use a drone but I've just seen this guy climbing on the steepest just to get to the top of a chimney and if you don't have a drone that can look at that those things work amazing. I think I know who we're talking about. And and that was that was only one guy in years past. Another guy Cory I know I saw him scale a I had to hold his ladder for him. I was so worried about him falling I'm like dude, you don't have to get up there he goes no, I do I need that I need I just feel like you should because you're getting paid for I know man. But this got you got to draw the line somewhere. Yeah, but anyway, glad to hear you're using a drone. Most people are afraid to use them. And most people keep falling into that zone of Oh my I don't Want to get in trouble for using it? Get in Trouble. What's your intent? I've never had one person have a problem. I know me either. I just laugh when I go to the Korean meetings or whatever. And these guys bring up this nonsense and on Facebook groups. Everyone is worried about the wrong stuff. That's like, guys get the tool you need. That's right. Be safe about it, get it done. I'm flying my drone. I'm unboxing it, setting it up putting the card in firing it up warming it up, and back in the box in 10 minutes. And I don't I don't drive around the neighborhood checking pools for girls. You know, I'm not doing something stupid. Right? So there's no need for me to worry about getting in trouble. Sure. You might have a Karen in the neighborhood who wants to come on go out? What do you do when you go back to your house? You know, it's none of your business. So that's, that's this crazy urban myth about about using a drone guys. Squirrel by one. Have fun. Yeah, use it. It's gonna keep you safer. You're gonna get great photos and videos with it. You can spice up your reports with it. And trust me, clients love it. Yes, when you roll up with a drone, my inspectors high tech, they love that shit. So by all means, get yourself in trouble. Yeah, the other day, I had three roof inspections, all three drone, only they were happened to be ones where

Chris Keil: 6:29

nobody was there. So I was kind of on my own vacant houses. And one of one was a super steep sloped roof. It's just amazing what you can do with them you can get you can get five feet away from what you want to take a photo of or you can be 50 feet away and then kind of do your edit when you when you load it into the computer and it looks like you you're walking that route. You can zoom into once you get the picture. You can crop it, you'll get you can see the missing cocking on the penetrations, right.

John Laforme: 6:58

There's all kinds of good that can come from using a drone. By the way, this is not a paid promotion of drones. I'm just I just love using them because they're easy to use. I mean, I was really afraid because I'm not a video game guy or anything. I thought I was gonna crash it. It make them so you know, idiot proof, frankly. Now that easy. You will crash one someday trust me. I crashed.

Chris Keil: 7:25

Did you crash it? I crashed my first one. But it still worked was it? It didn't have the collision avoidance. Well, I just look at it as user error. Yeah.

John Laforme: 7:36

I was always trying to crash it. You can't Yeah, I was new to it. So I was trying to just do the best job I could as I always do. And I was actually coming down the side of it was that there was a chimney where it met the roof was a gable chimney was over here had the two two gables coming up here. And I was coming down next to the chimney. And in between there was these long long, those tall trees the green are what they called. I can't remember the name of them. really tall Bush type of a tree. Yes. For you know, for privacy. And a big gust of wind just came right in between both and I hit the lever the wrong direction. Bam. Right into that right into that chimney. And then guess what? Gravity took effect. And it just went crashing it so yeah, as soon as one of those propellers stops, they all get screwed up. Yeah, so yeah, you need all four, right? Unless it's only built with three, you know, but yeah, it sucked. I was like shit. So I brought it in to get it fixed. It was fine. It really wasn't that bad. But and after that I bought a better one. Yeah. Now I know what not to do. Right. Right. I almost had power lines before. It's it's one tip for using drones don't fly where you're not looking. Like scope that around the scope around the house? Yeah, because sometimes there's low power lines or telephone lines that are right along the side of the house and you can't see them from all sides. Yeah, so just take a good walk of the perimeter first before you start flying. That's all I can recommend to people. But yeah, I've crashed once. So well good. Like I said Good to hear using a drone. I wish more people would use them. So let's say for anyway. So one as a home inspector, doing roof inspections, a lot of times when I'm on the roof being up there creates more questions than answers okay, that's why I blow up your phone. That's why I call you hey Chris. You know what about this right here? I just I don't want to I don't want to say the wrong thing to the customer. If it's if it's a roofer I'm not familiar with you know, there's still roofing materials out there I walk home like how the hell do I describe this? I don't know what this is. It looks like 30 years of Just layer after layer after layer. You call them built up roofs right? For you. out on low on flat roofs, right? Like big apartment buildings and so forth. So, like I said, some days, some days, I just get stuck. And I'm like, Man, I don't even know how to identify this. So I just say built up type roof. That's what I call it, because it might have, they might have coded it as well. Yeah. So I don't know what's under it writes real bumpy. So it could have been multiple layers or Yeah. Do you think somebody might have been? I'm not sure if this is something roofers would do. But do you think a roofer may have like gone over like a Stone Coated roof with that with that material, but they take that off first? Well, so if you're talking about a asphalt and gravel route, yeah, and then putting another roof on top of that, I do see that it's not a practice that I would find, or recommend or have ever done, frankly, right.

Chris Keil: 10:53

And it's, you see it from time to time. Yeah. And you'll see it sometimes on residential homes that had a gravel roof, they're kind of maybe lower slope, meaning, you know, don't have as much pitch as as you'd need. But they'll put either a roll roof or even sometimes a composition shingle roof over the gravel. It's just it's not a good procedure. Number one, those last Yeah, it's not and it's the gravel roofs are very, very heavy. You know, if you were to do that there are ways if you mitigate it, and kind of scraped the gravel off as much as possible, did a really good thick underlayment and then put your new roof on top, it might be viable, but frankly, I'm much bigger fan of removing the roof on in almost all cases prior to installing and yeah, that's that would be that would be my recommendation is to but you know, we see all kinds of nasty stuff that we do there. It's It's pretty bad. So

John Laforme: 11:56

one of the one of the biggest questions from any customer, I'm sure you get this as soon as you're done, how much? What's the cost? Well, that's a loaded question. For you, it may be simpler, because you know, like, for example, let's just use like a 2000 square foot, gable roof, Gable type sloped roof. You know, what if I'm looking at composition shingles that are 2530 years old? Yeah. What am I looking at to replace it? If it's only one layer,

Chris Keil: 12:23

if the actual roof are you talking about inside square footage of the house or inside square, okay, so roofs are typically going to be a third larger than the inside square footage due to the slope of the roof the eaves hanging out over the edges. And often, when you talk about 2000 square feet on a house, you're not including the garage, which may be attached or detached. So that's another four or 500 square feet for a typical garage. So you're going up to now you're at more like a 3000 square foot actual roof. If it's a 2000 square foot home. And, on an average to remove and replace for composition shingle, you're probably close now to $7 a foot. So $21,000, something like that to remove and replace, right 650 to $7 a foot is it would be, I think, a reasonable rate right now for replacement. And now what would the increase beyond that if it had three layers? Not terribly. Not a whole lot more, maybe an additional? When we talk about roofs, we break it in into squares. So if you have 3000 square feet, you have 30 squares, my multiplier would typically be maybe $7 per foot, if it's got multiple layers, maybe three layers and maybe be seven or $750 per square. So, you know 10% More something like that if it's got multiple Okay, so not nothing crazy other crazy. Right? Okay. Yeah. So multiple layers is something I come across a lot, especially on the Flipped lipsticks on pig houses that I look at.

John Laforme: 14:06

And it's, it's quite alarming to see what flippers do with and they do all the guys come on the house. The roof covers the entire building of why you're not spending your money there that impresses buyers. If they if I can only get a flipper on here. I'd educate them all. Oh, because they just don't do most of them. Only a few I've seen have been done really well. I couldn't agree more. Very few. So if you're listening out there flippers, spend your money in the right areas and you'll impress the buyers and you have less of an issue closing I'm telling you and it's a potential exposure down the road. Yeah. Roofing is the most litigated of any trade. Yeah, so is the roof leaking? I don't know. It's not raining. Yeah. The kitchen looks nice though. Yeah, the kitchen looks great. New lights and shiny So with the mulch back to multiple layers, here in Burbank, I've heard that if you have wood shingles still on your house and somebody went over them with composition of the city of Burbank is not a fan of that. No. So they like make you rip all that off. Do you know anything about that? I don't know the details of it. I've heard rumors I've heard that said that. You know, the thing. It's funny how, and maybe you have noticed how many roofs you see with wood shingle underneath. Yeah, and they just kept putting comp shingle on top. So maybe you've got 123 or more layers over the wood shingles, which are usually original to home construction from whatever the 40s 50s even 30 Absolutely. And so you're nailing that comp shingle into this crappy old wood shingle? Yeah. So it's just it's just again, it's a notic a roof that I don't think that we've ever done a roof over a wood shingle roof. And I believe certainly in LA I think it's been late at since you've been allowed to do that to put anything over a wood shingle roof and LA in LA. Now Burbank, maybe Burbank has maybe the city or Building and Safety has information somehow on what houses have wood shingle underneath there. Although that'd be tough to know. The wood detective? Yeah, yeah. Unless you're in the attic. You kind of can't tell. I mean, I can tell on the eaves. Sometimes you can see Yeah, I can tell because it's bumpy, or I just know that. Oh, there's witching already there. Yeah, double check in the attic, but I know already know there is yeah, there's this. There's certain ways to know but you know, it can work. Putting it. Putting a copper shingle over a wood shingle can work and I see that it works. It's just not. They're skipping two steps. They didn't remove the old wood shingles and they did install solid plywood sheeting for a solid nailing surface for the new roof. Now, is that a requirement now? Yes. Okay. So anything with skip sheathing needs to have a plywood put over? Correct. Okay. Yep. Everybody get that? So inspectors, if you see skip sheathing and you see a new roofing job, and it's no plywood, that's a problem. Yeah. So they're, they're only trying to nail into the skip sheeting, and hopefully they hit it and don't. And going back to your five layer, I have seen a house with five layers once it was crazy crazy. And so you need at least what a five inch nail to go to go through because that's what people don't understand. So I want to break that down a little bit. When it comes to putting multiple layers on. You need to use the correct size nails now because now you're trying to get through another layer of material to get to the wood to it actually fastens properly. And I've been on roofs where I could see some of the shingles were coming loose and I pulled up and a whole bunch just came right out. So I nailed into the shingle and nail they're telling me nailed to the shingles below it and the wind will blow that right off the roof. So it's, there's no upside to me, in my opinion, there's no upside to having multiple layers. Not to mention now let's get into the weight of all that extra material on the stress on the attic framing members. Especially if it's a house built in the 1920s what to buy for rafters right. And there's no purlin walls up there. Yeah, set to support it. So it's like, if you come across that what do you have to do as far as a roofer and you're going to put maybe, let's say you went from a composition shingle to a lightweight concrete time would you have to go in the attic and survey that first and make sure it can support it.

Chris Keil: 19:01

The rule of thumb is if it's under six pounds per foot, if the product is under the roof product is under six pounds per foot you don't typically have to get a structural analysis when you're submitting for for a permit. And so the manufacturers of concrete tile and even clay tile a little bit do have products that are are that weight so there's six pounds or less per foot and then you're typically safe and he certainly can't install that over something another roof product or over at shingle and you're you're gonna get if it's if it originally was wood shingle, you're gonna get some more stability by adding plywood to the surface as well. So that's, that's always a good point. plywood is good for racking, racking purposes.

John Laforme: 19:55

So yeah, that's, that's good information right there.

Unknown: 19:59

So

John Laforme: 20:00

So once again, the I've seen multiple homes, hundreds of homes with split rafters and, and a lot. And not to mention some of them actually broken in half. Yep. Because it's just too much weight on the structure. And if it wasn't built, you know, recently, it's not going to have to buy 10 rafters it's not going to have to buy it's gonna have two by fours right? Back then I'll give him credit for two by fours a little thicker. They're actually two by fours. Yeah, yeah, they're not like an inch and a half by three and a half anymore, like they are now. But that's not a good, not a good combination to have overall. So, cost wise, we just talked about a example of 2000 roof square feet. So what if it was a

Chris Keil: 20:55

concrete tile roof? Okay, what do you think a price would be on that. So meaning it's concrete tile now and they want to switch to new concrete tile, Give me Give it to me both ways, they may have a composition they want to upgrade to, yeah, into closer to. Again, we call it squares per 100 square feet closer to$1,000. So probably 30 40% More than a composition shingle on it. So if the if the roof were actually 3000 square feet$30,000, roughly to go depends on what kind of concrete tile some are more expensive than others. Were pretty much unless the house was reasonably structured for a heavyweight tile, we're pretty much going with with lightweight tile on most all roofs. When I say heavyweight, so standard weight tile is more like 10 or 11 pounds per per square foot. So it's almost twice as heavy as the lightweight tile. Okay. And it's hard to tell the difference just from the surface of the roof, it's you kind of have to actually have an actual tile to see which it is if it's lightweight or

John Laforme: 22:13

Right, right. So

Chris Keil: 22:17

as far as the life expectancy of composition is typical at 20 Well, you know, the soil composition shingle, there's there's a few different varieties, there's what's called Three tab. That's the, I guess, the base level composition shingle, we kind of I call it an apartment grade shingle. So a three tab shingle has perforation. So that's the one with the lines, when you look up at the roof, it has two perforations in each shingle. And there, there are kind of the thinnest of Composition Shingles, typically 15 or 20. Year, and they make them even in 25. But I think 20 is a reasonable life expectancy for three tab shingle, and then you go up to a dimensional composition shingle, which is probably what you'll see mostly in in, if you kind of took a helicopter around LA in the valley, whatever. Just a typical dimensional shingle, they start now, at what's called a 30 year life expectancy, they call it lifetime warranty. That came about maybe 2025 years ago, and all the manufacturers were kind of trying to sell sell product and lifetime warranty sounded better than 25 year or 30 year. Frankly, those kinds of shingles will go 2530 years, and they truly will last that long. I have on my house, what was rated to be a 30 year shingle and it is 24 years old. And it's still fine. I mean, like looking for excuse to replace it. It's I go up there and like, it's really just fine. You know, it still looks pretty good. And so yeah, so those will go 2530 35 years for the regular dimensional shingles. And then then there's another category, which most people generically would refer to as presidential shingle. And that's the thickest version. There was my next question. Yeah, yeah, I thought so. So presidential shingle is much thicker, and it'll go 40 or more years. Frankly, the, for most people, when you're talking about 30 versus 40, the presidential shingle, there's also JF makes a version called Grand Sequoia. And I believe Owens Corning has their own version of it as well, but CertainTeed which makes presidential is the most popular one. And usually the, I guess the emphasis for that kind of shingle will be more how it looks versus whether it's going to last 40

John Laforme: 25:00

years versus 30 years, it looks much thicker and much good looking roof material it really I'm always impressed when I see that on a roof. My biases are real. And I tell my clients that you gotta have a really nice roof out there and it was installed. Well, yep. Yep. I said, you guys, no worries. A long time to last more than most of the people that own a house will last. You know exactly, exactly. No, that's good. Yeah, I was going to ask you about the presidential because that's how that's how I've learned to turn them out to my customers. That's what I would call now. Let's talk about underlayment real quick, okay. On to those materials. Now, years ago when I was a young lead in the mid 80s, to late 80s. I did a lot of Roofing and Construction back on the East Coast, and I shingled a lot of roofs. Oh, but that's all we used. I mean, I used to work for a very big construction company and I was with them for three to four years. And we we did everything. Yeah. So I learned a lot. But I've only done back then composition very little bit of real roofing. Yeah. So my main thing was composition. I could knock that out and pretty fast. Yeah, and I wasn't using nail guns, right. This is my nails. Yeah. So I did a lot of those. I had a lot of experience with those. But that was it. I don't have any experience with the fancier stuff. Yeah, like metal roofs or a built up roofs or never did anything commercial, like those bigger commercial things. So that was my experience with that, but that's all I've ever done. So I can I can relate to that stuff. But as far as the paper underneath, it just seemed like a basic paper that I don't remember being anything crazy. Yeah, back then. Because I'm sure back then that's all it was. Yeah. Nowadays it's to have a much thicker versions or is it a rubber now? What do you do? Well, there's all different kinds of underlayment. It's, I think less critical what underlayment is used with composition shingle, than with other types of materials like for instance, clay tile.

Chris Keil: 27:00

With with composition shingle, our guys are using mostly the synthetic underlayment. Now, JF makes one called Tiger paw. It's, it's it's just the advantages of it are that it's a bit grippier to walk on. It will hold up better. So for instance, if you've got maybe you're doing a roof in the wintertime and you've you know, you remove the roof and you've got rain coming in two days and you're not going to be able to finish the roof. But you want to get it what we call dry it in so you want to get that underlayment on there to protect against leaks. So the or if it's new construction and the house is going to sit for a while. The synthetic underlayments hold up really well against water against the sun. Cool, cool and warm. They don't start wrinkling and rippling like you'll see with the old school asphalt felt underlayment. Yeah, so getting back to comp composition shingle. So the basically the underlayment is just a vapor barrier really, if you do a composition shingle roof and install it properly, you could do it without even using underlayment. Yeah, it makes it it would work our composition. Yeah. So but it creates a surface to nail to and it's a vapor barrier. When you start getting into clay tile, for instance, with clay tile roofs, especially the true clay, two piece, clay tile, water does get underneath. And so the underlayment is pretty critical, cuz that's your last layer of defense against leaks. And in those cases, we still sometimes will use synthetic there are different types of underlayments that are just designed for tile installation. And usually we'll do a double layer

John Laforme: 28:55

of the underlayment when it's when it's tile, right. So the way I explain that to customers is look, if you have a lightweight concrete or a clay, your paper underneath is very important, because that's what's keeping the house dry. Yep. And your tiles on top are protecting the paper. That's correct on the UV rays, right? Yep. So that's about that's about as simple as that can be. So as far as every, you know, if I if I'm inspecting a house that's about 30 years old 3035, the firt one of the first things I mentioned is your paper, if it's original, it might be decaying. Yep, it might be wearing out. So I always recommend a call guy like you to get out there and pop off a few and take a look and see if it needs replacing. And that kind of freaks people out a bit. Because now you're talking about removing all those. The only way to do it is to literally piece by piece, remove all those tiles, stack them up and then put your paper to go paper up, put the paper on and then put the towels back unless you want to change the color unless you want to change the color and unless you want to say

Chris Keil: 30:00

boiler roof material. Yeah, you don't necessarily like the look of the of the roof but clay tile really kind of has an indefinite lifespan. It doesn't. It doesn't go bad per se. As you walk as you walk on it, you know, it's funny. So yeah, what you're describing is what we call a tile reset. So basically your take up all the tile, stack it, you leave it on the roof typically remove your underlayment, then you're able to get to any rotted wood or whatever and replace that. And then install new new underlayment typically double layer underlayment, and then reinstall the tile and any broken tiles get replaced. That comes up most often, in my experience with inspections on tile roofs that aren't nailed. And that's unbelievably common. Even with new construction. I was at I was on a job that we were doing or I was on an inspection and I saw a brand new tile, clay tile roof being installed Beverly Hills, and they were not nailing it. And I even yelled up to the foreman I go you nailed those tiles, you know, just mortar. That's not acceptable. I thought you're gonna say they're using their gum. Yeah, it's a mortar between the tiles is is fine, but it's cosmetic. It's decorative. It's not in and of itself enough to hold the tiles in place holding the tiles together. That's not fastening them to the roots. Right? That's right. Yeah, crazy shit. And, and I even don't know, it was kind of a waste of time.

Unknown: 31:47

It

Chris Keil: 31:48

shows you how much respect I have for for inspectors that work for municipalities. But I called Building and Safety in Beverly Hills. And I said, I work here all the time. I said, you know, I didn't wrap this this particular house. I said, but are you guys checking for nailing of tile? No, no, they don't check cool. You just say me? Oh, it's yellow nails. Right. And it's like, you know, it's not unusual if you're doing a job if you're doing a brand new roof and Beverly Hills for a four or $5,000 permit fee for for a new roof. And they're not even checking to see if it was nailed and their excuses. They don't want to walk on it because it's tighter. And they might and they might break it up. They could buy a drone a drone or, or come out, you know, a third of the way through the job and just take a look to see if they're fascinating the tiles in place. So, but yeah, that it's, it's, you know, the lack of nailing or securing the tiles, in some cases is is more critical. You know, certainly on a steeper roof, it's really critical. Because the tiles are going to gravity is going to do its thing they're gonna they're gonna slip around seismic. And they might look great and stay in place when the roof is completed and the mortars holding them somewhat but over time, just natural structural movement or wind or even seismic. They start moving around and now you got tiles slipping all over the roof and just you know now so it gives you tips for a guy like me who inspects houses and attics. So if if I see a brand new construction or any any Clay Roof, should I see nails coming through? And the attic? Yes. Yes. Okay, unless it's it, depending on what the sheathing is if but if it's plywood, yeah, it should be coming through. If it's a two by, okay, maybe they, but you can tell. I mean, just you can just lift up two or three courses in from the edge of the roof and lift up. You're not even damaging. It's not, I don't think invasive inspection to lift up a tile and see if it's nailed or not. With Clay Clay tiles, the most one that you'll see that that might not be nailed. Or also wire tying is acceptable iron thighs. Yeah, I'm familiar. I've seen that. Definitely seen that before. So that's interesting. So let me

John Laforme: 34:23

see now we're on the tail topic. I got a few photos in here. Okay. So this picture here. What do you think?

Chris Keil: 34:33

This drone? Okay, is that

John Laforme: 34:39

a PVC roof? No, it's just a rolled roofing. So it's torqued down. It's not even I don't think it's torched either. But my point is the tiles, see how they throw them on the edges. They literally have screws going through the through the opening for the fact So you're opening on the tile right into the new roof. And it's everywhere. Yeah, so not so good. I wanted to bring this up because there's a few is a few questions regarding this that I wanted to cover. So a little quick backstory on this. I just did this house like a few days ago. Yeah. And there was a roofer that shout out that a roof inspection while I was doing my, and how old do you think that roof is right there? That's a really good picture of it. So it's a really accurate photo. It doesn't look very old. If you're talking about the rural roof. Yeah, same. That's the same thing. I said. So Mike, so before I went on the roof before I drowned it, yeah, I got a roofer telling me oh, yeah, the roofs all worn out. Gotta gotta go. So I get up and I'm like, Am I on the right roof? The buyer was with me. He's walking around, you know, because there's a patio right there. On the other side of that little this center roofing as a doorway. So we walked out there. Yeah. And I said, really? He told you. I said, this roof doesn't look like it's five years old. Maybe 10. Yeah. And he says why? He goes, Well, I have roof leaks. I said, Oh, okay. Well, that has nothing to do with the look of the material I'm talking about. If you have a roof leak, it's coming from somewhere, obviously. But let's take a closer look. All Oh, that's all of his pipe stack flashings every single one of his pipes stack flashings or gaps. There was no sealant on any of them. And a couple of McAfee lined up with the stains become a two on the inside. There you go as like, I would start there. Yeah. Before he rip off on a five year I hate from but I said you know, I will agree with the roofer about these being wrong. This is not right. So my question for you, Chris, was make believe these tiles are not here. And the roof did not have a metal cap on these parapet walls. Okay, would you automatically put one on a recommended one or would you just lay it over like it was before?

Chris Keil: 37:06

Well, so that's a bit of an unusual parapet because it's angled. And it's relatively looks like it's pretty Yeah, it's taller here and less and narrower over there. So it kind of it's at an angle, then we've had the roof had a good pitch to it. Yeah. So it was definitely going to drain. Well. Yeah, I think the coping tile so they kind of basically did a odd version of coping tile around the parapets. Usually, you would either have coping tile be acceptable coping metal would be acceptable. And even if it's done right, if you do the roll roofing properly and inherent Well, I see it work just fine with nothing there. But yeah, I mean, I would if it doesn't have one of the two I would recommend either coping metal or coping tile on this one. I probably recommend metal because typically coping tiles are not going to be installed lengthwise. It's that's just a very kind of a wide and angled parapet. So I think metal would probably be a better fit on I think so too. Yeah, well, they just did that for cosmetics from the ground. The guy was like, Oh, is it my roof tile? No, not at all just the edges.

John Laforme: 38:29

And not to mention, they're all loose. You can see these ones over here. I know they're all at the angle. I know, just use one fastener and I just kind of fell down those these ones over here. So it was kind of like pretty consistent throughout. Yep. But yeah, that's, that's always a question I have. So when I go to a house and I see you know, this is a 1920s building. And when I see like a 1920s era, construction has got a new roof. I always wonder Hey, should they have put a cap on this? Are they required to you know, I checked the edges. Make sure they're not lifting. Yeah, times they are. I mean, if you look at the very top right corner that the far parapet you see the wrinkling and the looseness on the Yes, yes, that's common. Yeah. So it's difficult to get when you're Yeah, when you're doing your torch down. It's difficult to get a perfect snug fit everywhere. Yeah, a little bit of rippling like that. As long as it's not pulling the seam apart, or in danger of falling falling down. I don't necessarily think it's a performance concern. Okay. Right. Yeah. Okay. Well, that's that about covers that I think I have another then here's a wider shot of it. Oh. So yeah, you can really see what's going on there. So now they put this part on right.

Chris Keil: 39:54

Yeah. What is is this

John Laforme: 40:00

Also, this is a little porch roof. Okay? It's real roofing, the roofing looks okay, but the flashing is wrong, which I'll show you next. Where did it go? With the flashing? Not so good. Now it should be underneath. Exactly. So we're going to get the flashing shortly. And, let's see, Okay, a couple other materials, you know, EPDM I have to write this stuff down. I can't remember all this stuff, all these letters, and you get TPO. And then PVC type, right? Okay, so I get all that correct. I don't know how to tell the difference unless it's labeled. So I don't try to figure it out. I just like, you know, it's one of these.

Chris Keil: 40:45

Chris can probably answer this better for you. Well, I. So when, when you're talking about EPDM EPDM is hardly, you'll hardly ever see EPDM. In California, it's an East Coast material. And it's usually EPDM is not usually white, or tan or a light color. Because I don't care about it's black or dark gray. Most of what you'll see when we're in the realm of what's called single ply, and that's what those products are is called a single ply is either going to be TPO or, or PVC. My understanding or what I've been kind of led to believe is that PVC is the superior product. And that's, that's probably what you'll mostly see. But I can't tell the difference between PVC or TPO. By looking does it look like it's a rubber. It's it looks like it's kind of a plasticky film of material. It comes in different mil thicknesses and different warranties. But frankly, if it's done properly, it's one of the best things you can do on a low slope on a, you know, on a flatter roof. And as inspectors of homes, we're going to start seeing it more and more and more. It was relatively rare that I would inspect a PVC roof maybe 510 years ago, but now I'm starting to see it a lot more. It's it's SPECT into new construction. It's a really good, good product if it's done properly. It's installed properly. Okay, and I mean some of the roofs I look at like that. I want to call it rubber because it just looks like it's rubber. Yeah, you know, it's it you walk on you can see it kind of move a bit and you know, it's the first thing comes to mind is rubber. Yeah, so I don't know if it actually is a rubber. Are you saying it's PVC or PVC is it's always white. PVC is a kind of more of a monolithic surface, it's kind of you won't see. Number one, it comes in wider widths. The rules are sometimes six feet 10 feet wide. It is heat welded together so you don't see necessarily the seams as pronounced as you would on a built up roof or modified bitumen roof. Where you'll see every three feet you'll see the side seam and if done properly. I'm digressing a bit but if done properly, you'll see asphalt bleed out for either hot asphalt roofs or for torch down modified bitumen roofs versus PVC. The telltale sign is there's no asphalt because the asphalt is not used in that and there's no bleed out. It just kind of looks like all one surface. You know what I noticed on this particular one I'm trying to describe to you is around the penetrations. It looks pretty specific. Like that. Kind of looks like a patch on a jacket or something. Yes, but it's done nicely. Yeah. Is that the same stuff? Yes. That's PVC. Okay, you know, okay, okay. I want to make sure because like I said, if it's not labeled, what the hell yes. You know, the biggest thing with while we're on it, so PVC or TPO when I'm inspecting those roofs, the main thing I'm looking for is did they use all compatible products that go with PVC. So PVC manufacturers such as Firestone and Sarna, Phil and these manufacturers they have all their own matching detail products, scupper drains, pipe vent, flashings edge flashing, all that has to be compatible with PVC. In other words, in order to weld it properly, you can't just use a regular piece of metal it has to have that surface PVC to PVC. So you want to make sure that you have all all the the same compatible products when when looking at those roofs. And if if so then it's typically going to be a probably a pretty good installation. It's not going to be a handyman installation. Yeah, that separates kind of, you know, your average hacky roofers from a tech you know oriented type of of company Roof Contractor when you see PVC roofs also it's not and I have inspectors asked me this from time to time it's because they'll go up there. Oh, it's it's rippling and it's not adhere well there's adhered fully adhered PVC roofs and there's not adhered PVC it's good. So if you see some some voids where you see some rippling it's not necessarily a bad thing versus other types of roof materials where that would be a red flag. Right, right, like on a rolling roof. If it's wrinkled, it could start the sun's gonna make a crack. And then you're gonna have a leak, right? Yes, that's pretty obvious. And you'll trip over and trip over Yeah.

John Laforme: 45:42

So good. Thanks for clearing that up a witness. TPO. Stanford Dino

Chris Keil: 45:47

has that the actual name of PVC is polyvinyl chloride. I believe a TPO is

John Laforme: 45:57

attention home inspectors. We all know the challenges of trying to market our businesses and run them at the same time. It's hard to do marketing while you're under a house in a crawlspace or up in an attic. So don't give up there is a solution. And it's called home inspection and repair.com. Home Inspection repair offers a practical and inexpensive way for you to be found by motivated clients seeking the services we provide. Once you join your profile will tell them why you are the perfect home inspector for them. We're building a way for homeowners and real estate agents to find you easily. So position yourself prominently at home inspection and repair.com. What is TPO roof thermoplastic polyolefin Poly is alright poly, poly poly 11. So you will close you said thermoplastic right I got the thermoplastic a single ply white membrane used in both commercial and residential roofing due to TPO being a white membrane it reflects heat instead of reserving it. If you have a flat roof or sloped dormer over a bedroom TPO is a great option because it keeps the side note on on TPO and PVC and I'm pretty sure EPDM it's six months to get it now. Oh wow. Yep, six months out. And there are there's other products some some versions of concrete tile that are also just as backlogged. Now did the price go up 50%

Chris Keil: 47:36

The prices just continue to go up I don't know about 50% but they just continue to go up and crazy all of our shingle all that stuff has asphalt base so oil prices go up they go up and somehow they don't know they never seem to come back down even if oil comes back

John Laforme: 47:55

I got this gas station right here around the corner who's just screwing people left and right on prices? I can go I can drive oh seven what Yeah 694 A super Yeah. And I'm just like, I'm gonna go there and emergencies like if I forget to fill up or I need something to get me to my next job. But I've been at other places or at least$1 cheaper. Its guises screw and people feel good about my electric car yeah, I'm trying to get electric van actually I'm waiting for Mercedes that come out with a mattress electric I already have a mattress fan now. lease is coming up and I call them Hey, you guys gonna have an electric version? Well, we have one in Europe. I'm like I don't live in Europe. Do you have one of those here so I can come by it and it didn't seem to have yeah in the US yet. Yeah, sucks it'll come so I'm just gonna buy out the lease keep it because that vans Great. Yeah, there's no issues with it. I'm just gonna keep it and then if the opportunity comes up when the electric van comes along, then I'll sell it it's not just the money I just don't love stick stopping for gas. Yeah, no, everything's convenient, inconvenient nowadays even going the ATMs and convenience of it for me nowadays. Alright, so we covered a lot of roof stuff. underlayment and all that. So let's talk about roof ventilation and lack thereof. One of the biggest problems I see on any new roof whether it's new construction or old construction or just a reroute for whatever. Minimal to zero, yeah inhalation. So I just wanted to get your opinion on ventilation and how it affects a roof materials.

Chris Keil: 49:41

Well, in theory, the manufacturers less if we're talking about composition shingle manufacturers do have outs for their warranties if you don't ventilate properly. That being said, I've never really seen

Unknown: 50:00

In a

Chris Keil: 50:02

roof failure due to lack of ventilation but it certainly is huge for the efficiency of the house and how hot the attic is going to be. And yeah, HVAC efficiency. So it's really not It's not a difficult thing to do when you're replacing a roof to add and there's a lot of nice choices now you know the the when people maybe think of roof ventilation they think of the the whirly turbines turbine fence. Yeah was a horrible those days, you know, and that's another thing we did never really did a lot of installation of those but shouldn't be discontinued. Yeah. And it's funny because they're no, they're really no more effective than just a regular dormer vent, which even those are not particularly attractive to some people. So eyebrows you mean yeah, like what they call a halfmoon. Dormer, but now they make these low profile. Roof fence. O'Hagan is the big manufacturer. Those are great, and they're just low profile. They blend into the roof. They don't. I've never seen one leak. I have seen turbines leak, turbine vents leak and I have seen even dormer vents leak, depending on the installation, especially if if they try and put the dormer vents on a lower slope roof of wind driven rain, it can come in, but with the low profile O'Hagan or I'm sure there's other manufacturers, I've never seen them leak. It is critical to have both low and high ventilation. So just putting roof vents in and there's no soffit dance or, or Gable vent, depending on the roof, shape of the roof. So you have to have both so that the air can come you know low to high and get escape cooler comes and pushes the heat out. So that's the that's the formula. Right? Anyway. Right. But

John Laforme: 52:06

But yeah, so you know, as far as inspecting homes, if guys out there if your inspectors if you see a new roof and there's only one vent, you might want to call that out. Yeah. If there's if there's no soffit vents, and there's only one vent on the roof or no vents, I see it oftentimes there's no events. Yeah, it's zero. Yep. Maybe a couple of gable vents. That is not enough. Yeah. So I always have to call that out on something I recommend everyone else call out as well. Because like Chris said, if there is no soffit venting at all, you can put up a row of lower ones. And then you could put a row of upper ones as well. And that'll at least be got some flow. That'll be better. So these nuggets in circulation. Yep. All right. Cool. Thanks for answering them. Under lamp covered that. Another thing about when I was on the East Coast doing roofs, we installed roof vent ridge cap. I'm sorry, I said it wrong ridge cap vent. And

Chris Keil: 53:11

I never see that here. Oh, it's yeah, it's it's out there. I have not seen it here. Really? Maybe because it's so well disguised. But yeah, I see it fairly often. And it's it's a good option that doesn't have any at all real visual. Downside. It's got it's like it's like the tiles. I'm saying that the shingles are on a, like a piece of PVC with a vent of louvers in it, right. Yeah, there's different kinds. There's like one, there's one, Cobra, by GA, if it's kind of just a mesh material, it's basically creating a gap between the where the shingles come up to the ridge line, and you leave a gap in the in the plywood on each side of the ridge beam.

John Laforme: 54:01

And you place this material so you've got three quarters of an inch gap or so between that and the actual Ridge shingles, which will allow for a very effective vetting process to the highest point in the attic heat rises. Yes. The best place for a rich man is right on the rich. Right right atop. Yes. So yeah, that's just something I don't see. And I'm like, I always want to just put that in. It's so easy to do. Yeah, because I used to install it. Like yeah, hard. Yep. So that's an option for you people out there if you got a house looking for ridge vents way to vent better you can that's one option for you. That actually install that on hips too.

Chris Keil: 54:45

It's not as effective on hips because that's just not the highest part of the roof. But I have seen it done on hips as well. Some homes like a two storey might have a first level with a roof that extends out Yeah, well so it's got its own little like attic area. So some

John Laforme: 55:00

I could see it working there. Yep. Yeah. Interesting. Okay? And flashings. Oh, flashings are always fun to talk about. So I got some good pictures of that for all right. So this is my favorite chimney flashing installation. Takes, they literally just busted the step flashing right up against the chimney, and then all the way around with their counter flashings, and there's no, there's nothing cut into the chimney at all, to let water run over and onto the

Chris Keil: 55:38

that's on all four sides, by the way, and that's something that I kind of see more often on where there's multiple layers of roofs. Yes, that's common. Yeah. And they just abandon the old flashing or there. Yeah, it's so thick that it's, it's, it's not even there anymore. Usually, you'll see that all gummed up with some roof cement as the other side. Yeah, same thing here. They just all you had to do is install a flashing and the actual by the way, this had multiple layers. Okay, did it it's had at least

John Laforme: 56:08

at least one more under here. Yeah. That I could tell. Yeah. So this was a great little video I made people got a good laugh out of that one. That's, that's not how you do it for people listening, watching. This is not how you do it. You need to cut in a counter flashing on top of here. So the water runs down the chimney over the flashing onto this flashing light onto the roof. It's real flashing and counter flashing. Yes, that's they go hand in hand. Now, here's a really good question for you. Oh, by the way, here's a picture of some multiple layers. So oh, by the way, that's the same roof. Yeah. Yeah, there's two layers there. Yeah, at least two. So anyway, that was that. And this one I see a lot. A roof to wall flashing. So my question for you here is because it always once again, it's one of those houses that causes more questions for me than answers. And that is, if a home like this, this is an early this is houses probably 1920s Yeah, right around their their 20s 30s. A lot of times when I see it, it's wood chips, wood siding, and the wood siding literally runs into the shingles. So if you're hired to do a job like this on a 1920s house with, with roofs that run into walls on either side or whatever, you are required to cut back that stuck. I'm gonna put a proper flashing in there. It's what should be done. Okay. So is it so it's technically not a requirement, but if a if you're, if you're a prudent roofer, you're going to do it? Well.

Chris Keil: 57:54

So let's say you had brand new siding, you had Hardy siding there. And you don't want to necessarily so if there if the if the counter flashing or the step flashings are they're going at a right angle in behind the actual siding, then you've got a pretty bulletproof roof right there. Okay, so basically the shingles are acting as the flashing. Now, if it's old wood shingles, I would probably want to cut those out install a flashing and counter flashing. It just depends depends on what the condition of the actual wood shingle siding is, or if it's if it was done maybe when the last time the roof was done if it's like a hardy plank or higher Hardy siding, if they did do the the flashing and they still are in good shape behind the actual siding. Then I would say I don't know if I'd want to cut into that that siding and put in some kind of flashing, you know, there. So it's per application. If Yeah, you rip it off. Yeah, but this is what this photo this is an easy install to put a flower flashing over that into the stucco. Yeah, that's a you just put a flashing right over a seal the top of that. Yeah, what's called Tucker flashing and it's basically just a metal that it's a four inch wide a four five inch wide metal. There's a line where you can put your fasteners and then above that there's a caulk line where you just caulk I see that quite a bit and you don't have to cut into the stucco to install it right I mean, that would be the ideal way to do it. Yes, that flashing shouldn't be exposed like no no that's not it might have gotten away with it because the eaves popping out over and it's probably not getting a lot of direct rain, but a blowing rain certainly could could intrude there Yeah. I write this up as non standard flashing Yes, though. I agree. And then a get a roofer. Yep. them tell you different. Just don't call that guy

John Laforme: 1:00:00

See what else we got here? Oh, by the way, here's a wood shingles at the edge. And I believe that was the same roof. This is the garage area. Oh, the same roof as we just saw. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. So this is an indicator of multiple layers you get, you can easily see composition from the ground and then you look on the even you get, that's a pretty big overhang for wood. Typically, it's only like an inch. Right? That's about a couple inches right there. But typically, yep, I'm only seeing like an inch there. But yeah, that's an easy way to tell before even a threat get into your inspection. Like, just look up. Yeah. And it's, it's, it's good that you have

Chris Keil: 1:00:38

that you have the awareness to check at the edges and know that that's which angle easy a lot of you know, and it's funny they got they got creative. So when this was a big installation practice they had three way a metal so the metal would fold underneath and hide the woodshed I know because why would there be three way metal right, you know, it's hiding something. But yeah, they just use the regular drip edge flashing here. But if it wrapped underneath, you know, but certainly looking in the attic, you're gonna know immediately that it's yeah, that's that's a good point. You just pointed out there, you know, being observant to that. That's just my experience roofing. Yeah. To know that.

John Laforme: 1:01:20

Yeah, that's not Yeah. You never roofed you might overlook, right? That's easy to do. But, but seriously, that's. And then when you see like, Well, why does it look like this? Three sets of right, flashing on here?

Chris Keil: 1:01:35

Because there's three routes.

John Laforme: 1:01:39

It's simple math people. It's simple math. That's comical sometimes. And get that talked about that one? Yeah. Okay. That's it for photos for them. So, here's a here's a good question for you. If you look at this chimney, again, we're gonna go back to this mess of a flashing here. Whose job? Is it? To properly flash a chimney to a roof?

Chris Keil: 1:02:07

Oh, well, if the roof is being replaced the roofers that's the roofers responsibility. Oh, that's brand new chimney. I think it'd be the chimney guy. Okay. All right. So as a roofer, you don't have to bring in a chimney guy to do this for something like you guys are trained. You guys know how to do all that stuff. Okay, that was a question I always had with that. So yeah, same with crickets, for chimneys. You know, that's something a roofer can do. So what's the requirement on that, that these are 30 inch wide or more? You're supposed to have a cricket already or more 30 inch or more? Yeah, you should have a cricket which basically just a water diverter on the high side of the chimney, that's going to take water around it. There are tiny let me pull up a cricket. So no one thinks that that little green thing? Yeah. And there's times when it's, you know, more critical than others. If you have if the flashing is installed, really high with respect to the roof level, then it crickets maybe not quite as critical to have. But

John Laforme: 1:03:16

yeah, that's perfect. So here's a picture of a Jiminy Cricket, not Jiminy Cricket a chimney? Correct. They do get confused a lot. So basically, what Chris is describing is this, what looks like a little roof in between the roof and the chimney. Just so you know, water doesn't build up behind that, because that's a good way to get a lot of rust and corrosion on that chimney, roof flashing, and it turns into a leak eventually, right? And high winds, high rains that can all contribute to that. And if it's not flashed right in the first place, well, it's just not flashed, right. And here's one that's being constructed as a good picture of that. So they're just building a little framing member there. Yep. And they're gonna cut in there. step flashing and counter flashing over here. So yeah, that's a that's an important thing there to have in place. Sometimes I see chimneys almost like five feet wide. And they have no cricket. Right? It's pretty crazy. Yeah.

Chris Keil: 1:04:15

Yeah. And it's one of the most I mean, roofs. What I think I kind of bring to the table when I'm doing inspections is that I've been doing this almost 30 years in California, and I'm the guy that goes out when it rains and deals with clients and leaks and warranties and new clients that have leaks. And one of the most common places the roof wants to leak is at the chimney. So if you don't have the right flashing installation or cricket installation, if that's required, if it's not all buttoned up, that that's a very vulnerable spot on the house where it's going to want to leak. Yeah, any any roof penetration has the

John Laforme: 1:05:00

ability to become a leak. Right? So it's just picture building your house with a roof with nothing sticking out of it. Nothing no vents, no chimneys, no skylights, chances of you having a leak are slim to none. where's it gonna leak? where's it gonna leak? You know, the shingles would literally have to fall off there to be a leak. That's right. So now, if you have three bathrooms, while you can expect to have at least probably three plumbing vents if they're all in different areas. So now you get three penetrations. Now you might have a couple skylights. sure those are great to have. But you're just creating a hole in your roof. You literally just cut a hole in your roof and put flashing around it and hopefully it's all gonna hold together. In my experience with skylights as I've talked to you about before, we're gonna lead right into skylights here. Oh boy, I've I had some fun with skylights over the years. My YouTube channel has great skylight videos on it. Because I just I'm blown away by what I find that Scott I literally lift them right off roofs all the time. Hey, can you get a yell down the customer? Can you give me some sugar? And they're like, look it up we're talking about who's this guy.

Chris Keil: 1:06:11

But I have fun with it when I find it but I have to compliment you because I don't think I really ever thought that anybody would not secure a skylight. So I just assumed well it's got to be secure and now I check off I was on an one I was on a house yesterday that I had inspected. I don't know six months ago you know as you run into we get some repeat stuff. Yeah. And I'm like ah it's just here they didn't do anything they didn't do any of the stuff I told him to do and walking around I'm like maybe I should check that skylight Sure enough not secured

John Laforme: 1:06:50

How hard is it to put him now on I want to text him you go and found another word. So I looked it up I take a photo I'm like you know I'm gonna be submitting this report with a little little different information this time. I remember you and I being on a roof a couple years back. Very expensive house. Yeah, remember that will do and remember all the skylights we talked about that. And one of them they literally this house had to be what 6 million this this house was worth so much money. It was crazy. And it was all just redone or just built? Yeah. They took this is by the way this video is on my YouTube channel and I put it on there twice because I got called back to look at it again. They said they fixed it. They did not fix it. That happens a lot. They they built the curb, which is its own size. I mean, you could make the curb smaller and reframe everything and pull the drywall apart and redo it all. Or you can just order the right size skylight. Yeah, yeah. Oh, there were too big. Right? Yeah, that's right. So they're there. They measured wrong whoever did it. They ordered the skylight and made the curb the same dimension as the skylight frame. So the skylight sat on top of the curb, it didn't go over it. Remember that it didn't sit over it like it's supposed to. We could fasten it to the sides. So you could even fasten it. Yeah. And then I go back the second time. I wish I had time to pull these photos but I can't remember the ad just show the property. And second time around, they took just sheet metal and tried to funky do this. This flashing to make it better. And I just looked at the lady. I said man, I told you to get a qualified person here. Yeah, because whoever did this the first time screwed it up. Yeah. And they need to buy you a new skylight. You need the right size and problems. All right, they're trying to make push a square peg into a round hole here and ain't gonna work. Yeah. So yeah, that's that's some crazy shit that I see. Yes. And I call it out all the time. And I remember having you on the phone. I called you before and I say what do you what's your opinion on these flat skylights on flat roofs with no pitch on the curbs? Yeah. And it's been my my opinion and my experience. Over the years when I used to roof I did install a lot of skylights and I knew how to do it. I was trained by a really good guy and all the flashings had to be intact he had to put the the rubber membrane between the roof and the curb and you had to make that thing super watertight. So I know how this is supposed to go down and I constantly see it just hacked. The work I see on somebody's house is just absolutely crazy. So it's it's just the importance of checking skylights. So inspectors and roof inspectors if you're out there, yeah, checks, right? I lift them just grab each corner and see if they're coming up because a lot of times, even if it's brand new, the not even screw down with one screw. There's no sealant. There's nothing. Yeah, and they're just someone

Chris Keil: 1:10:00

just went like that and left. Yep. Yeah. And you know, while we're talking about skylights, I mean for me, I am a fan of Curb mount skylights. And pretty much that's all I feel like is going to be a dependable waterproof skylight. I mean so flat roof or even a slope either one. Okay, well, I'm not a fan of the cell flashing low profile skylights, you can get away with it on a composition shingle roof. But to install one of one of those on a tile roof, so really you want to have a two by six curb and then a framed skylight that's going to sit on top of that curb. Yeah, I'm trying to pull up a curb right now so people can see ya in pretty much all situation it's kind of too small.

John Laforme: 1:10:56

And then you have the ability to here's a good here's a good here's a good picture. This is a curb is a basically there's your roof. The curb is just basically a little bit of wood framing, and it mounts right on top of the roof and nail it in. And then you have to seal it and flash it and then the skylight sits on top of the curb. That's correct. And it can be openable it can be they come in different versions. It can be flat glass, it can be a dome, it can be white, it can be tinted, it can be whatever, but you want it to be a curved mount style, skylight and if you button it up and you do your flashing installation properly on the sides, and on the top slashing, there's a top flashing a bottom flashing is that it's a kit it comes as skylight and that's for a reason. Yep. And I've seen too many times where up at the top here where the top section of flashing goes. Somebody just made their own flashing. And it's like Ah, seriously guys, this is so bad. Yeah, and it's no way it's gonna snow it no way it's not gonna leak. So there's two types of skylights skylights that haven't leaked yet and skylights that leak.

Chris Keil: 1:12:07

have five skylights in my house. none I've ever leaked. Well, you know what you're doing so that's not fair.

John Laforme: 1:12:15

So here's a good here's a good image right now of what Chris is describing, building a curb right here. So that's it, and then you flash it up, see how they got the number leak, I got the membrane right there connecting between the roof and the seam of the framing.

Chris Keil: 1:12:29

That's how you do it. Yep, do it right. And then put your flashing in and shingle up your shingle up with your flash up. Or if it's on a flat roof, you do your roll roofing all the way up the side of the curbs on all sides. And you're good to go. But six inches up versus for like a two by four versus a two by six. Frankly I like two by six you just want it off the roof level. Absolutely. Let that water go go around and render it Yeah, not not right into it all the time.

John Laforme: 1:12:59

So yeah, that was a good lesson there on skylights. So I've mentioned a few minutes ago, a flat roof with a flat curb. I would prefer to see one side of the curb higher than the other so a flat glass skylight the water has a place to go

Chris Keil: 1:13:18

I just don't seem think it's a good idea for any building material to hold on to moisture. Yeah, so they're sitting dead flat on the roof. Yeah, I've seen it where I can go like this with my finger and there's water and just there's a pool of water it's just covering as the water is going to do its thing it's still worth Lanza seal it's gonna let it let the sun damage it quicker. I agree. They actually I believe V Lux skylights are fully fully sealed on all sides and they don't require there to be a slope. It doesn't void their warranty etc. There are some types of skylights and what we're talking about right now is is flat glass skylights right versus dome skylights dome skylights doesn't matter. That should be it that's a flat glass. Yeah, right there. So that's a good installation. Plenty of slope. And they have actually a we pull vents on some skylights so you have to install it the right way so you can't have the the weep hole vents have to be on the low side or the high side like and drain just like a window is That's right.

John Laforme: 1:14:27

Yeah, so but yeah, I agree. You know, it's why would you put it dead flat if it's if it's glass, you're gonna you're gonna look up you're gonna see the water puddling up there and this is what I prefer to see right here you go a low side a high side if it's flat glass because you know, when it comes to skylights and you have those those plastic domes, you basically just have a hole in hole in your roof. There's no R value there. No, that's just a big why not put something where you can put a double pane. Well, the dome skylights are insulated some of them so they're done.

Chris Keil: 1:15:00

Double dome, right. So that's true. Yeah, yeah. And those are that's what I have my house and they they seem to be efficient I when I did my skylights it wasn't as the glass ones weren't as popular. If I do go to change them out, I'll go to glass but yeah, it's an older older design. Yeah, yeah. Yep. So I see those. And they're still in good shape. I just like to not you know, it's just old. It's an old material. It's just you know, it's functionally obsolete right now. You can get you can get much better now. That's true. I haven't seen one of these yet. Oh, my goodness. Look at that pyramid. A pyramid. That's a specialty skylight. I see those from time to time when it gets into that sort of thing. I noticed one's got copper. Yeah, that's That's an expensive that's a very expensive look. It's got a motor too so it's going to pull back yeah, that's like a little opening Yeah. At the birds shoot right in your house.

John Laforme: 1:15:57

Crows fly in? Yeah, right in wonder why is a bat on your ceiling go to bed at night. That actually helped me before I was living. I was living downtown and I was renting a lot a loft and I left my slider open maybe a foot and I left the house. So I come back later that night. And I'm just doing my thing in the kitchen whatever. And as some may be look up and I see this big brown thing on the ceiling a beam like what the fuck is that a bird? Is it an owl? It's a fucking bat. Yes. The worst thing in my house probably worse than a rat. Yeah. Things gonna land on my feet. I just think it was things gonna land on my face while I'm sleeping like oh shit. Yeah, so I opened up both doors had these big sliding doors open up both and just got stuff and started throwing it. Just whatever I had to do. It took me probably 30 minutes to get rid of the man glad I saw that. Yeah, that would have sucked if I woke up with a bat on my face man. Yeah, it's funny I saw a YouTube video with

Chris Keil: 1:17:08

we can transition to a roof conversation. So these roofers were taking off a clay tile roof. And I'm pretty sure this roof did not have bird stop. So bird stop folks is something that kind of fills the the rounded edges at the edge of the roof so you can't get pest intrusion underneath the tiles bird's nest and everything. Yeah, so that's it's a it is something that I call out if it's not there. Sometimes you can get away with it just fine sometimes not so much but it does invite passengers but these guys were removing a roof and they start taking up these tiles and all the sudden bats are just everywhere. Wow. And they have interrupted these bats are in their sleep and they're just I mean there's hundreds and hundreds of them wow underneath living underneath those tiles. And I don't know what the outcome was of that but I guess that was the end of that but they had the respirators on Yeah, that's nasty all that droppings and tests and everything else and that's that's just not good that's not money that Yeah, yeah, that's okay that's enough enough with the bats are good people nightmares on this episode.

John Laforme: 1:18:26

Sorry, you weaken squeamish out there so that there was too many roof. So for a home inspector what what advice would you have for finding abandoned vent stacks abandoned old furnace exhaust pipes get rid of them? Recommend they take them off the roof and redo the roof that area? Yeah, just a potential leak. Right? Yeah, if it's not needed, you don't want something through the roof and it's not a terribly you know, difficult or expensive repair. It's pretty simple. It's pretty simple stuff. So I'm gonna write it up all Yep. I was taking my flashlight and look down all the other pipes that you'd be surprised it's going somewhere. Yeah, usually right into the insulation in the attic. Yeah, that's what I see a lot. So that's that's gonna leak. I just did a house two weeks ago and it had four inch cast on a plumbing vent that they they can't find out in the attic. And I'm looking down and I can see all the insulation right there. It's a four inch hole I said you got this house actually had the square footage of the house was 1100 square feet and it was one floor and it was a 1920s square, just basically a square. And it had five open voids in the roof and none of the pipe stacks were sealed and they were all new vent pipes. So I looked at this listing agent a man on the who did your roof but need to call them back.

Chris Keil: 1:19:53

You know what I see with that is quite often you'll have so for instance H fac H The AC contractors or, or or, you know, they're doing a bathroom remodel or a kitchen remodel and they just don't have the expertise to properly roof in the flashing, whether it's coming through shingle or current through roll roof. So they just maybe they don't want a flashing at all. Or they'll put a flashing and it's just sitting on top of the roof and it will just throw a little roof cement over the base of it and call it a day. But there's, you know, proper overlapping technique for those flashings and it's really critical, and that's another place where roofs probably one of the most common leaks is improper flashing or lack of flashing installation at a Piper vent coming through the roof. Yeah, like I said before, if you get no penetration is going through the roof. Where's the galley? Yep. When it starts leaking? It's because of one of those. That's right. Most likely, most likely.

John Laforme: 1:20:55

What about gutters? Do you deal with gutters? You know, I, I

Chris Keil: 1:21:01

so gutters for me. Since I see probably, I'd say 40% 30% of the roofs I go to don't have gutters. Yeah, it really is not so much a function of the roof as it is water management and where the water is going on the ground. So, you know if I see something obvious where I see, you know, foundation is, is getting damaged due to lack of Gutter Installation. I'll say something. We as a company, our company, we don't install roof, roof gutters. But I have a couple of really good installers that I refer to people. So if there's lack of gutters or any interest in that, I'll defer to my gutter guy. Right sheetmetal guy

John Laforme: 1:21:53

asked me a question here because you know, this may pertain to the roof. First time I've seen this a few months back, you know, but he's right. Sure do so huge house. I had him come out with me. So I had two people on it because it was just a monster. Yeah, Monster House. So the property was like 6000 square feet. Now I take it back when we're talking about it was it was 12,000 square feet. It wasn't 60s it was 12,000 square feet. And the the roof from the ground. It looked like a pitched all the way around. But it was actually parapet with a pitch on it. Okay. And so I get up on the roof. And I see the roof drainage. I see the bird cages I see all the scuppers and all that stuff. And then I finished the roof inspection. And I go down now I'm doing the exterior walls and everything. I'm like what the fuck are the gutters? gutters are in the walls. It's the first time I've seen this type of installation, this application how they did this. I've seen where a balcony deck will have a drain. And that would go underneath between the living rooms delivering sailing, for example, come out and then go down. But it would typically come out of the wall. Yeah, these went all the way down the wall and came out the bottom. It all PVC. The downspouts Yeah, they were inside the walls of the house. And like that is just not a good idea. I don't think I've ever seen that. Yeah, as a first time I ever seen it was interesting. So I had to make a new category my home inspection report for them like oh shit, and I gotta make a note. Because I've seen that before. Yeah. Hey, you know what, you get downspouts that are not visible? I can't tell you if they're leaking or not. Right. And if they do, they do. It's all interior damage you're talking about here. And there was he asked to get to Yeah. And there was a couple of spots in the house that I noticed that had a lot of they were plaster walls. And there was a lot of spalling and deterioration like man, what if that could be related to that? So I made sure I live in every single wall. Yeah, that places a monster. Yeah, along those lines. What What scares me for for buyers or homeowners is when I see the indented or what I would call built in gutters that kind of come back underneath at the roof edge

Chris Keil: 1:24:35

or even maybe like a well type gutter that's between the actual wall and the actual edge of the roof. So those I mean a typical gutter that's going to be sitting and attached to the facia or to the rafter tails. It's just kind of by itself, but if it if it eventually fails, it leaks onto the ground. It leaks out of the ground but these you know, that's the timebomb eventually though that's that metal if it's galvanized or even aluminum eventually it's gonna fail. Yeah. And usually it's galvanized and you start seeing and now, you know, I'm just not a fan of that design. So in typically when replacing roofs will walk will abandon those gutters and put a traditional gutter in, right? Yeah, roof, roof it all the way to the edge and, and put a gutter on it. Yeah, cool. Yeah, I just wanted to share that with you see a picture, see if it came across that yet? Is there anything like late and great that we should know about in the roofing industry right now any materials out there that I may not I may soon be coming up on or anything we didn't discuss, I think you know, what's really changed? My industry is the influx of roof coatings, which we really haven't talked about. Let's do that. So yeah. You know, it's, there's two major types right now, one is the last American one is silicone based roof coatings, this comes into play for typically low slope or flat, you know, roofs that that have a rolled roofing material, I've seen it on shingles, I've seen on shingles as well. And, you know, it's, it's, it's wrong in every way, but it doesn't necessarily hurt the shingles, you know. But yeah, it's more, it's more designed for application on a roll roof. Depending on how viable you know, let's say I go up on a roof, and it's 1520 years old, getting near the end of its life expectancy. And many, many cases, that roof can be saved with a with a coating application. And it can, you can literally, if you stay with it and do it every 1015 years put a coating on it, you can keep it going almost indefinitely. And the coatings, they're very the technology they have, especially with silicone now, it will waterproof, whatever it is put on top of you could have a pond of water two inches deep, and you have silicone coating, I'm not saying that's a good good thing to have a big pot of water on a flat roof, but it will work and protect the world roofing and protect against leaks, you have to have all the detail stuff, right? Right. So the leak, the places where the roof is going to want to leak, as we discussed is where anything's coming through the roof, a chimney pipe, a drain area, so that all has to be right. But as as, conversely, the roof is not going to leak in the middle of the roof, where there's nothing. So let's say you got it, you know, it's approaching the end of its life expectancy application of either Alaska America or in some cases, silicone coating, at maybe a third of the cost of removal and replacement is a really good option. And we're doing we're doing miles of it on our commercial side. And quite a quite a bit of it on the residential side as well. So when I see that, when I do see coatings

John Laforme: 1:28:08

on flat roofs, where I typically would expect to see it. I just let the customer know, look, I can't tell you the condition of the roof, because it's been coated Yep. Now the coating could be covering a really damaged roof. So I got to put it out there. That's right, you know, I'm not saying this is not going to work. But

Chris Keil: 1:28:28

I got to let them know that is a coating here. And it's most likely because they didn't want to replace the roof. But now the way the way you're explaining it puts me a little more at ease because nightstand is a very good material if it's installed correctly, and it lasts. Right. And it's very waterproof. Yeah, it there's, there's there's factors and you and I kind of know just by experience you go you know, depends on how old is the home, you know, you can kind of get indications of how old is the roof even if there is a coating on it right? When a roll roof gets older, it loses the little granular surfacing erodes away and even with a coating on there, you can tell if that has occurred or not. You got multiple multiple layers of roofs on a on a house and a through a coating on it. And you know, that was the end of that. That's not going to be the same as somebody that was that's maybe got a 10 year old roof or a 15 year old roof that put a coating on it. Maybe not necessarily to correct leaks, but because of the energy efficiency of the coating, like which is huge. I mean a coated roof versus an uncoated roof on a 90 degree day is about a 60 degree difference and you need sunglasses on the nice sunglasses with

John Laforme: 1:29:45

that reflective right especially when you're new, but it's not out. Horrible. Yep, not a fun day. I just got

Chris Keil: 1:29:54

put on my port later. Put some sunblock.

John Laforme: 1:29:58

It's like a day at the beach without Got the water. So that that brings me up to water ponding low points and roofs. It's never a good idea to let a roof material to soak in water either, is it? That's just like just like the skylight issue. That's why I'm from the East Coast. I'm from Boston. So I've very experienced with what moisture can do, especially in the winter. Yep. So ice, it just sits and sits for days and weeks at a time, depending on the temperature and whatever it's sitting on is probably going to get a little damage. Yep, a little worn out a little quicker. So water ponding I do see that in, in Cali here a lot. It's really easy to find, see dirt stains everywhere. You know, as a home inspector, I gotta point out, hey, look, you got some evidence, water ponding. But you're talking about tearing the roof off to fix it right? And re put it down because you have to get to deal with the plywood in the framing and then you got to re pitch it. So I tell them look, if when the roof eventually wears out, if it hasn't already, they can deal with it, then, you know, let them deal with it then but right now, it's not much you can do about it. Yeah, you know, there's water ponding. And there's there's significant lake of water on the roof, I've seen that that is something that I would I would definitely be very strict about.

Chris Keil: 1:31:28

That's probably if you have significant ponding water all over the roof, it's really probably a replacement situation. And you're going to want to get in there remove the roof. And in most cases, the most effective way is going to be to do a tapered install insulation. Installation. On top of what's there to create crickets and valleys and drainage water direct the water in some cases, you have to add in drains, which is maybe not always convenient or easy to do, because it's in the middle of the living room, whether your low spot is. So you might need a plumber, you might need to add some roof drains, you know, tapered insulation. But I would say nine times out of 10 When I see ponding water it's not, it's not a good thing because it will allow for faster deterioration to the role roofing because the UV is magnified by where the where the water is sitting. And it'll it'll typically what I say in my reports is it will allow for faster deterioration than the other areas of the roof. That's also in many cases, a good scenario for a roof coating, especially silicone, silicone holds up quite well the where water is going to sit. So you get the benefit of cooling off the roof, you get waterproofing benefits, and you get something that's going to hold up well, or certainly much better than the roof by itself where the water is sitting. The manufacturers of roofing materials, consider water ponding to be water that sits for more than 48 hours after a rain, which, frankly is a bit ambiguous in my opinion, because what if it's cloudy, you know, and cold for two days after a rain, you know, versus Oh, boom, it's sunny, the next day, you're gonna get a faster evaporation process, you know, where the water sits. But their point is, you know, and the point is, is that really in a perfect world, you want all the water to drain to either the roof edge or to a drain, and you don't want it to sit more than two days after. The reality is is that the flat roofs that we see every day, usually have some puddling water and then might last more than 48 hours. So it's kind of a case by case basis of how much water how deep. And you we can't always tell John when we're up on roofs. If it hasn't, if it's July, it hasn't rained for six months. We know water is probably sitting there but we don't know how long it sustains or something something obvious. Exactly. So probably two or three years ago, I did a house and it had a lower flat roof and an upper flat roof. So the whole building was just low sloped flat.

John Laforme: 1:34:29

I get up on the second, the second area and it's probably 30 by 30. And half of it had three inches of water sitting on it. And it wasn't raining. So it was a nice day. Like Gosh, it's just been sitting there. I'm like What the hell's going on here? So I'm trying to look for the drainage. So I had to go back down my ladder, because I couldn't get right up to it the edges. I had to figure out what the downspouts were and I just sucked it up and got wet. I had to try to see if I can clear it off for me now. I just the gutters are full, just full of the gutters. Yeah, there was a, it was a it was a scupper situation. And it was just completely filled with debris. There was a tree kind of maybe 10 feet up overhang on the roof. And it was pretty obvious what the cause was. So I just get in there and cleaned it out and slowly just started draining. And then I noticed the gutters were falling apart. So it was leaking all over the house of like, Oh, Jesus, just did your good deed for the day. I did my good deed for the day, but I just don't want to bring it up to homeowners with flat roofs and you have trees next to your houses you have got to get up there are send someone up there and clear those roofs off. This is where these problems come from. Why is my roof failed? It's only six years old. Well, rain last time and you never clean your gutters. And now you just got I'd say instant water on your roof when it rains. And we had really heavy rain early or late in this in the year. Yeah, last year, if you remember

Chris Keil: 1:36:01

just just kind of heavy rain heavy last week. We had those rains for whatever two weeks and then it just never rained again for like a while it was like oh the water problem solved or whatever. But anyway, and it's every year the first heavy rains and this year was one of the heaviest. All of our calls. Out of all the calls we get which is can be hundreds a day for either emergency repairs, warranty calls, whatever. It's almost always flat roofs. And it's almost I would say our guys go out or I go out and clear out a drain and that's probably a third of them. Oh, you know your roof. If you have a flat roof and you have parapet walls. It's not a bathtub. You can't just count on that roof to hold six inches of water. Exactly what you said. I'm going to use that line on my next customer. It's not a bathtub bathtub. It's not a good bath time. The birdbath? Yes, yeah. So clearing out the drains, keeping it clean, making sure you've got good scupper drains, ideally with overflow. So you want to have a squat. If you've got a wall. You've got to scupper drain you want to have a secondary drain if that drain gets clogged, and cyst if everybody did that, and everybody kept their their roofs clean. We'd be getting a lot less phone calls after after rains. You wouldn't have to work so hard

John Laforme: 1:37:37

I don't think I have anything else at the moment here. I think we covered quite a bit. Oh wait, hang on. Metal roofs? Which are these is that something you guys do? We don't install metal roofs? I certainly inspect them. There's different types of metal roofs.

Chris Keil: 1:37:54

Did you have one in mind? You were thinking when you brought that up? Do you mean like the stone coated metal like that kind of looks like tile? You know, I didn't think of that. I'm pretty familiar with that. But yeah, go ahead. Well, they're Stone Coated metal it they were made by a manufacturer by Cal pack I believe was also a plastic version. Yeah, I've seen that to the metal and it's a lot of plastic roofs now. Yeah. Stone Coated plastic Stone Coated plant. Oh, that I don't know if I've seen I've seen that plastic. I'm like what the hell is this plastic or walk on it? No. Yeah, I don't want just like I wouldn't walk on the stone coat of metal. Yeah, they don't. They don't. It's like a it's like an old school. I have seen it made out of plastic. Yeah. And it's I'm like, really? Wow, that's new to me. But yeah, this the soul coated metal, you know, you want to really be really careful about walking on it because it'll crinkle in the in the hollow void spot. And a lot of the times those were they're not as big they're not being installed as much as they used to be. But in a lot of cases, they installed those over wood shake or wood shingle roofs because they were in the shape and could fit right over the old wood shakes. So now you're you know, you're hiding, you're covering over an old I'm not a big fan, to say the least of the stone coated metal roofs. They can work and they're sure very little higher high fire rating class, a fire rating and all that. But they're very lightweight, very lightweight. They're just difficult to walk on. I'm not you know, cosmetically I don't love the looks of them. But also what you might have been thinking of is standing seam metal roofs, which is more of an architectural look, and frankly a much better version of a man Yeah, that's what I meant by when I said metal that the real streamline. Yes. Got the Yep, it's got the ribs in it. Yeah, yes, that's the bottom. I mean, if you do it, right, it's a 50 year minimum nowadays nowadays. I like what they're doing. They'll do the top roof most likely a nice composition. Yeah. And they'll do the first year

Unknown: 1:40:00

or a porch roof. So it looks great. It's a nice little nice touch.

John Laforme: 1:40:05

Quite well. Yeah, aesthetically, it looks really good. And I've never seen one that looked like it was installed bad. So it seems like anyone installing those, they just know what they're doing. Yep. Yep, it's really of all the Standing Seam Metal roofs I've looked at, I've had hardly anything to call out in the way of corrections.

Chris Keil: 1:40:22

Oh, if we if we have a minute, so and I see this on standing seam, and on other types of roofs, vaulted ceilings and high ceilings is really common now with new construction. And when they're installing those metal roofs are really any kind of roof with those vaulted ceilings. What I see sometimes is condensation issues. You ever run into that, where you'll see. So if you're if you're building a new home or you're you're changing out your ceilings, to vaulted ceilings, what they want to do is stuffed that whole cavity with insulation and I venting it and they're not venting and it's difficult to vent it because you've got rafters running, you know, every, whatever. 24 inches and the only way to do that right would be with baffles that allow air well, you first of all need a soffit vent soffit vent Isador you're never gonna vent it and then you run the the little Styrofoam baffles that will allow probably this much air to be able to rise up. Yeah, but then you're going to need another termination point up at the top. Yep, to do it. Right. Yep, that sounds good. And they don't do that. And and so two or three years later in a it'll happen more in a in a kitchen area or in a bath specially a bathroom. Maybe on a second story and you all of a sudden see moisture stains or even mold at the at the ridge at the peak of the ceiling. With my roof is leaking. No, you're not leaking. That's not where roofs gonna leak. That's condensation. I haven't seen that. Yeah, it happens a lot. They over insulate, because they're required to you know, what's the requirement for insulation? It's thick as you can go are 30 Yeah. And so they and there's no attic. So in inventing is just a Whoa, maybe well, then, you know, it's just a kind of a secondary thought. And I've had it where we come in and really what the only thing that I've really had work on that as installing a ridge vent, because that'll least allow something at the highest point to get get some ventilation. So something to think about. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, that's interesting stuff. I

John Laforme: 1:42:36

think that's all I got. Okay, anything else? No, I think we're good. I really enjoyed it, John. Yeah. Thanks for coming. That was was a good conversation. My pleasure. My roofing experience helped. Yes, yes, I can. You know this, because that's why I always have these extra questions in my head. But I'm on a roof. In fact, I've done yeah. And I learned you know, stuff from guys like you, you know, that skylight thing lifting up the skylights? You know, you know, I always tell people, even when, like, if, if there's a speaker at one of the Korean meetings that might have seen a couple times, I'll still go if I can make it because he may say something different this time, right. And I'll take this one little morsel from it. And like, ah, light bulb, that's what it's all about, you know, light bulb, and you get a little more education. So I mean, the amount of knowledge in those Korea meetings with all of us inspectors combined. Oh my god, it's crazy. It's huge. But nobody really taps into that in there. And I always try to push those guys, you know, why don't you guys you don't need a speaker every time you how much knowledge is in this room, just shooting the crap with the shit like we're doing right now. It's just like, you know, what are you going to do so? So before I end, I just wanted to point out to homeowners, if you're if you're buying a house, you know, don't panic. Like the shirt says, buying a home don't panic. If if your home inspector inspecting the house, don't panic, we got you covered here. So if you're owning if you own a house, or you're buying a house, you got to maintain your roof and gutters. You got to take a look once in a while. It's not you. I don't recommend anybody to get on a ladder if you're not comfortable with it, because it's dangerous. So getting on a roof. That's something we didn't cover as ladders. Ladders are dangerous. Let's just call it that. Be very careful what you ladders guys. And yeah, just just be careful what you're doing on ladders. And as far as inspectors go, I hope you got something from this. I hope that we'll get something from this. I think we talked about a lot. A lot of good little issues here too, to call out for things like that. And yeah, man. So thanks. Thank you, John. Thanks for joining. Thanks for coming on the first podcast. Yeah, it was funny when I text you. I don't want to tell everybody how that happened. I was like, You know what, I need to get out I need to get Chris on here because I haven't had a roofer on here yet. And there's a lot to talk about Bruce. And I had text you and you're like, No way dude, I just I was just watching Your other your YouTube video on the last podcast and like, Oh, that was great. Yeah, that was good timing. I was even thinking like, why isn't he asked me to be on? Literally, like three days later you called me? That's hilarious. Yeah, yeah. So here we are. Yeah. So anybody out there that I know. And I haven't called you yet. Don't think you can't call me. Because I'm always looking for good speakers to come on a good guest who just want to come on and have some fun. Just talk. You know, there's a lot of a lot of people out there do not know what we know. So trying to educate everybody as much as we can and just make the home buying process a little less stressful. But yeah, thanks again, Chris. signing off. Thanks for listening. Home Inspection authority. Inspection authority code 23. With Chris, I'll kill again. Yeah. Does that make you there for a while. But anyway, thanks again, man. Thank you. Now for a quick word from our sponsor. Are you a music lover, I don't know how to play a musical instrument. And check out the tornadoes.com Ellie's leading Music School for both kids and adults specializing in guitar, bass and drum lessons locations in Los Angeles and Orange County or worldwide with online lessons. A unique gamified way of learning to play music. membership includes access to our app and desktop portal loaded with lesson videos and other useful learning tools. To book a free trial lesson go to guitar ninjas.com and mention this podcast. Rock on Okay, just a friendly reminder, you're buying a home don't panic, Home Inspection authority inspection authority. You can schedule us online. I go into home inspection authority inspection authority four seven, you can call us at 800-950-8184. We offer general home inspections, mold inspections and testing sewer camera inspections, indoor air quality testing, swimming pool and spa inspections. And like Commercial Inspections. Use specialized tools provide the most thorough inspection possible such as drone or roof inspections that are not accessible. Crawl bought are under homes and tight crawlspaces to get to those areas otherwise not accessible. And we use thermal imaging technology as well. So give us a call at 800-950-8184 or like I said you can schedule online at home inspection authority.com 24/7